Viability of the UN

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Cail
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Viability of the UN

Post by Cail »

I seem to have a habit of taking unpopular stands on most issues. Why should this be any different? :D

I admit upfront that I don't know all the ins and outs of this subject, but I will research it, and I reserve the right to change my mind mid-stream but...

I think the UN has become nothing more than a paper tiger, and in fact has actually helped to legitimize despots (like putting Lybia in charge of the human rights comission). To echo an old saying, I think its time for the US to get out of the UN, and its time for the UN to get out of the US.

I'm not saying that the UN should be disbanded (that would take more than just the US), but I don't see that the UN is effective at anything, and therefore is a waste of time and resources. I also question the need for NATO anymore, but that's a different subject.

So, tell me why I'm right, tell me why I'm wrong, and I'll try to figure out the same.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

I'd like nothing more than to tell the UN where to go, but for the veto power the US has on the Security Council. However, the UN is in desperate need of reform.
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Post by onewyteduck »

Cail, I am inclined to agree with you, and have felt that way for quite some time.

I feel that the UN is essentially an organization made of men and women who care only about their own positions, power and prestige and I don't forsee that changing any time soon. That being said, I feel the same way about our politicians in DC also.
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Post by Cail »

Yeah, I think there is a need for some sort of international council, but the UN just doesn't seem to be doing it. I can't think of anything in recent years that we could point to and say, "This was an unadulterated success".
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Lorelei »

One could say the the UN started off better than the League of Nations but has now degraded to the point of uselessness. Perhaps it is time to begin again.

Gee Cail, I think your view is not as redical as you might think.
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Post by Cail »

Dear God, don't tell me I'm becoming mainstream.

I don't think my poor heart could bear it.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Brinn »

There was a time when I would have said that the UN was useful for providing humanitarian assistance but in light of the Oil-for-Food debacle I would hesitate to even make that claim. I agree that reform is necessary.

BTW, there are some interesting discussions on this very topic in the following thread:

United Nations: Useless or Essential??
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Post by Lorelei »

The problem with a United Nations type organization is that every nation is, maybe subltey looking after it's own interests. The thing about humans is that like animals we are rather territorial. Agreed there are a growing number of people thinking that this territorial like nature is taking it's toll on both the environment and society, but to ingore it is just like ignoring the hunting intisincts of the wolf.
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Post by dennisrwood »

why is the UN still stuck in WWII mode? boot France and Britain off the security council. the EC seems no better. NATO is allowed to die off. burn it all down and start over. but then who would pass endless sanctions against Israel? turn the UN building into affordable housing. wow, i didn't even mention...
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Cail
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Post by Cail »

Dennis, I agree. I think that rational thought has left the UN building.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Nathan »

boot France and Britain off the security council.
The moment the EU merges its foreign policy this'll be done. I believe one of the main objections to a unified foreign policy in the EU is that Britain and France would lose their seats on the security council.
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Post by Queeaqueg »

The UN is good, but America own them. What is point if America want to go to war and the UN says 'no' and America say 'oh well, we are going anyway'.
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Post by Cail »

Queeaqueg wrote:The UN is good, but America own them. What is point if America want to go to war and the UN says 'no' and America say 'oh well, we are going anyway'.
I think the past 4 years or so definatively proves this statement wrong. Iraq was in violation of 17 UN resolutions (all of which authorized the use of force)....The UN did nothing, they were busy lining their pockets. America ignored the UN, it didn't buy it.

I can think of no example of the US dictating UN policy. Please give me an example of how the US owns the UN.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Gadget nee Jemcheeta »

I think the issue is definately that everyone is protecting their own interests. The whole world seems to have become hostile to the United Nations.

I like the UN because of their message...they were formed after war devastated a whole generation of people, and wanted to make sure that something like that never happened again. Peace is the focus of the UN Charter. However, the way its set up paralyzes its effectiveness. I don't see why the US needs to get out of the United nations, I think the United nations simply needs to be reformed by the parent nations, outside of the actual UN.

Nato's a whole other story, I'm not a fan of Nato.
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Post by dennisrwood »

at least NATO seems true to there charter. although they should have taken in the former communist states once the USSR imploded. the UN seems extremely anti-Israel, to the point of hysteria. and the Money for Cash programs reveals the rot at the heart of the UN.
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Post by Cail »

The UN's original message and intent were wonderful, but the reality of today's UN is similar to the original only in name. I don't see how it can be reformed without throwing EVERYBODY out and starting from scratch. Or just scrapping it altogether and starting something new.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Gadget nee Jemcheeta »

I disagree, I think that showed how the individual countries in the United nations saw how they could take advantage of a program. I don't think you can pin that on the United Nations as an organization.

If anything, the only thing that makes the UN useless is that the countries that are a part of it simply don't have the desire to live up to ideals such as peace and equality.

course that's just my opinion

Edit: I wasn't talking about Cail's last post. That was entered a split second before mine. :)
Last edited by Gadget nee Jemcheeta on Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by dennisrwood »

the UN has no oversight? how long did the program go on? the UN must take blame for what it individual committees do.

well I'm sure the Israelis would like to live in peace.
but having the US/UN telling them not to defend themselves smacks of hypocrisy.
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Post by Cail »

JemCheeta wrote:If anything, the only thing that makes the UN useless is that the countries that are a part of it simply don't have the desire to live up to ideals such as peace and equality.
I think that's certainly part of the problem, but the larger issue (I think) is that the UN has no teeth, or if it does, it chooses not to use them. Look at Rwanda; the UN did nothing. There's 10,000 people being killed every month in Darfur, the UN has taken no action. Disagree with the war in Iraq, but there were 17 UN resolutions that Saddam had violated, and the UN did nothing.

Yes, absolutely, the countries involved have gotten lazy or corrupt, but I think the institution itself has lost it's ideals.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by dennisrwood »

the UN should be shining a light on wherever there are human right's violations. but doesn't Libya head that department?
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