Kevin's Watch

Hey,
I'm a philosophy graduaute amd interested in uncovering certain philsophical elements behind the Chronicles through a thesis i hope to write. Can anyone suggest possible avenues for intellectual analysis of these works. i've read the seven books in depth and want to focus on the idea that beauty is the meaning of our lives but comes at the tragic cost of enduring the despoiling of that beauty. the idea of the different defenders of the Land's reactions to Despite is a keen reflection of the different reactions we as humans aspire to in defence of the beauty we uncover in our lives, from the strict, inflexible Haruchai, the loving self sacrifice of the Waynhim, paradoxical attitudes of Covenant himself or even the arrogance of the Elohim. Every author pours him/her self into their works. Is this a crux of Donaldson's life; the question of whether it is possible to endure the rigours of life in spite of despair in the name of the hope of beauty to contrive our salvation against meaninglessness.

I believe one aspect you can explore is that there are no absolutes, and that perfection is not a realistic goal.

One example: in the Chronicles you see the Hurachai demand absolute perfection, but they are unable to live up to their own standards and do not forgive themselves.


Tom

Welcome to the Watch, Ur-lord! Hail!

The last part sounds like a question you might want to ask SRD himself in the General Interview on his website. There's no guarantee he'll answer, but it's a great place to get an idea of what he thinks about things.

As for the first part, it sounds like an interesting project. I guess you'd have to figure out what "beauty" actually means in the context of the Chronicles. Is the beauty of the Land something only experienced physically? Or is it more than that? Less? I mean, if the Land is, in fact, merely a projection of one part of Covenant's mind, then can it be beautiful independent of Covenant himself? And if it cannot be independently beautiful, does that mean that the Land's beauties are actually Covenant's? And if Covenant is beautiful, then does it follow that his actions are too?

It sounds like you've set yourself a grand problem here, and from the sound of your question, I can see that it could be very difficult to separate Thomas Covenant's philosophy from Stephen R. Donaldson's. But I think that's a difference that you should keep strongly in mind. TC is not SRD, though there's no saying how much of SRD is in TC. But one's a person, and the other's a storybook character, and they should never be confused with each other.

Good luck! I hope you'll share your reflections and conclusions with us as they progress!

Welcome, Ur-lord! Good luck with your project!

I would think guilt vs. innocence is one of the main philosophies...

How did TC say it? "Innocence is nice but it's impotent. Guilt is power. Only the damned can be saved." (paraphrasing)

Hmm, for a minute I thought you were UrLord, one of our other members.

Hope your project goes well.

Is this a crux of Donaldson's life; the question of whether it is possible to endure the rigours of life in spite of despair in the name of the hope of beauty to contrive our salvation against meaninglessness.

It's somehow fitting that a convoluted sentence like that should come from someone in philosophy. Sorry for being a grouch, but c'mon, who are you trying to impress?

You read SRD? And you complain about convolution?

Matrixman wrote:It's somehow fitting that a convoluted sentence like that should come from someone in philosophy. Sorry for being a grouch, but c'mon, who are you trying to impress?

Oh come on, MM! Give the member a break. So what if it sounds convoluted; there are some members here, myself included, who are guilty of the same. What are you going to do now, become the forum's resident writing critic?
Sorry, but you were rude. We can only hope this member returns after being 'welcomed' so 'warmly'.

Looking back on it, you're right, Loremaster. I had no right to say what I said: it just came out of me. I wasn't thinking too clearly at 3:00 AM in the morning.

My apologies, Ur-lord.

Ur-lord wrote:Hey,
I'm a philosophy graduaute amd interested in uncovering certain philsophical elements behind the Chronicles through a thesis i hope to write. Can anyone suggest possible avenues for intellectual analysis of these works. i’ve read the seven books in depth and want to focus on the idea that beauty is the meaning of our lives but comes at the tragic cost of enduring the despoiling of that beauty.

For what it's worth, I'll offer some points. To begin with, you might want to narrow your focus. Donaldson doesn't seem particularly interested in questions of philosophy outside those of individual ethics (ie the process of arriving at a personal, rationale and sustainable rules/answers to questions of good and evil, accountability, choice). With that in mind, I'd suggest drawing on figures from your undergraduate work in the field with the aim of finding parallels or discontinuities.

Second, your statement that "[you] want to focus on the idea that beauty is the meaning of our lives but comes at the tragic cost of enduring the despoiling of that beauty" needs to be defended at the outset. It's not plain to me that Donaldson insists this need be the case, rather he is using a construct (the situations in the books) to examine how one might react to such. Nor is it an absolute in his work. Things like beauty or joy, in his novels, seem to arise more from the inner capacity of the individual to experience them (even create them) then they do from external reality.

the idea of the different defenders of the Land's reactions to Despite is a keen reflection of the different reactions we as humans aspire to in defence of the beauty we uncover in our lives, from the strict, inflexible Haruchai, the loving self sacrifice of the Waynhim, paradoxical attitudes of Covenant himself or even the arrogance of the Elohim. Every author pours him/her self into their works. Is this a crux of Donaldson's life; the question of whether it is possible to endure the rigours of life in spite of despair in the name of the hope of beauty to contrive our salvation against meaninglessness.

I think the ideas of hope and "meaningless" antithetical. Meaning is concomitant to hope, or the reverse, if you will. I think, then, it comes back to a question of capacity. An internal capacity to find both meaning and hope (the giants illustrate this perfectly, particularly Pitchwife and Foamfollower) in the face of despair.

Man, all of this philosophizing is melting my sad brain!

I think...

UGH... BOOK GOOD... READ BOOK... PHHHOOOAARRRR... BOOK GOOD... PUISSANCE... UGH... WORD BAD...

I think the most important bit of philosophy I took away from the Chronicles was the part where TC gets summoned, but refuses, to save a little girl's life, and Mhoram says something to the effect of "The Land will not be destroyed by choices such as these" or somesuch. I really like the idea that sometimes being true to yourself is better than being true to anything else...and that intentions count for something. "The road to hell..." is a saying that has always bothered me immensely. Anyone here ever see the crappy old fantasy movie Legend? Where Jack tells the little forest elf boy that he "Did it for love" never mind that the earth is being plunged into eternal winter...and the lil forest elf guy says basically "Oh well, if you did it for love then it's ok. Let's have a toast to love!". If you do something for the right reasons, REALLY, not for any self deluded selfish reasons but for the only things you know are right, how can you really go wrong? I don't think I've made any sense...it made a lot more sense than this in my christianity paper, believe me. I hope.

My Lords, thank you so much for the responses and the criticisms Matrixman (how can i form a little good idea without some constructive criticism-thanx). It is almost as if parts of the chronicles characters respond to beauty in the same way components of SRD's mind might react to it. For me, the TC Chronicles is a book on the spirituality of what the world might be if we sought hard enough. We may not be able to possesse Earthsight but in every living thing around us is an emenation of spirit and that which draws respect from us. this manifest outside ourselves if it were possible would be Earth Power i think. As for the division between TC and SDR i hope to get in touch with the man himself to flesh out some of the investments he personally made in the character from his father's work with lepers and much more. Ambitious yes but well worth the work for a piece of literature i have come to love.
Thank you all for your feedback, i'll be regularly here in future.

p.s. As for the Haruchai's 'advantages of clean living' (interesting quote) what does that amount to in the new book? Goodness, realisation and power amount to nothing if they're not employed or deployed in the service or promotion of something meaningful or beautiful. (i think)

Thank you all again.