Interesting response by SRD...

[drew]

...so what else don't the Masters know about...?

[Edelaith]

Wait a minute.
Are you saying you think there may end up being two Covenants in the Present at once, one alive and one dead? One brought from the past, and the original one that died?

[lurch]

...why stop there Edelaith?,,Everytime a caesure crosses path with anywhere TC has been,,ohmy! theres another TC!..Multi Convenants! The land awash in Convenants! The last book, Final Dark, or whatever, is obviously referencing the Sun being blacked out by the humongous pile of Convenants on the Land. The Land is becoming a toxic waste dump of Convenant...aaaaaaaaa!......MEL

[dlbpharmd]

That's not what I'm saying.

[Edelaith]

Good. One Covenant is bad enough. (chuckles)

[CovenantJr]

The Matrix Revolutions Army of Smiths came to mind, but saying "hellfire"

The last book, Final Dark, or whatever, is obviously referencing the Sun being blacked out by the humongous pile of Convenants on the Land.

I don't think there will be a Covenant from the past, as I've said before. When in the past could he be brought from that wouldn't involve rewriting a huge chunk of the existing Chronicles?

I like the implication that the Masters' arrogant and very Haruchai assumption that they hold all the info might be utterly erroneous. The Masters keep knowledge from the people of the Land, but are actually out of the loop themselves.

No, I'm sure Covenant told no-one about the ur-viles' breeding habits while we were "watching" and I don't think it was sufficiently relevant to his immediate situation that he would have mentioned it "off-screen".

[High Lord Tolkien]

I don't think there will be a Covenant from the past, as I've said before. When in the past could he be brought from that wouldn't involve rewriting a huge chunk of the existing Chronicles?

Maybe when TC went to his talk with Chant.
That would be the only time he was physically isolated from the others.
And...well.......... that was downtown Elohim Central!
There could have been caesures all over the place.

TC seemed pretty frazzled after rejoining Linden.
I don't look at the TC we see on horseback at the end of Runes as necessarily being there until the very end of the Chronicles.
He might only be there for a brief time to play the part that the Elohim (or whoever is manipulating things) want/need him to play.

The problem or trick would be to have him interact with with our present Linden and have her not give away any info that would change the past TC's future. (I love this stuff!)
Or have him not remember anything that his does during this little trip to the future when he returns to the past with Chant.

I was also going to say that when TC was "alloying" himself within the Banefire might also be a time for a caesure transfer since there were some incredible powers at work there but TC wasn't really in too great a shape then.
Of course Linden does have the WG and the Staff of Law with her now.
Maybe she could "sustain" him for a brief time until he completes his "task" and send him back to the Banefire before he explodes.
Any knowledge he might have gained from interacting with our present Linden might not matter.

In the first Chrinicles I don't think TC is ever left alone, is he?
Bannor or Foamfollower is always there.
But then there was that Unfettered in Morinmoss........

[CovenantJr]

The thing is, TC had no knowledge of the future, so SRD would have to opt for some kind of kind of memory wipe, and I think that's too cliched for SRD.

[Sigilind]

Hang on! Go back a bit!

I know this may sound a little daft but what if the ur-viles made a body that was just a body, and TC (yes he is dead) can use it? That would explain how he came to be there and how he was getting messages to linden as he can sure exit this type of body as easily as he could enter it.

[danlo]

(It's Roger, prematurely aged, had a bad caesure )

[CovenantJr]

Hang on! Go back a bit!

I know this may sound a little daft but what if the ur-viles made a body that was just a body, and TC (yes he is dead) can use it? That would explain how he came to be there and how he was getting messages to linden as he can sure exit this type of body as easily as he could enter it.

Interesting. A step on from Vain? That hadn't occurred to me, and it's just about unlikely enough to be possible.

[Aleksandr]

Elena and Kevin did not act on their own free will when they served Foul. They were in effect puppets possessed by the power of the Ill-Earth stone. Elena and Kevin are not themselves “acting” in any sense at all. Foul is acting through them. It’s similar to way in which the Raver in the “Message to Revelstone” chapter of TPTP possesses the dead body of the Stonedowner (Yerquin?) who froze to death, except that Foul is possessing Kevin and Elena’s ghosts (souls?) not their bodies, and as such Kevin and Elena are conscious of what is happening, but are powerless to stop it. They are indeed just spectators.

[oconnellc]

Is it just me, or are the Laws of the Earth not very good laws. If the Law says "You can't do something" but you can do it, then the Law isn't very powerful. To Donaldson, they are more like the Suggestions of the Earth. "You shouldn't bring people back from the dead", not "You can't bring people back from the dead".

Part of the question is whether or not Law comes from EarthPower or from Wild Magic? And does EarthPower come from Wild Magic? And if EarthPower doesn't come from Wild Magic, where does it come from?

Seems to me that if I can use Wild Magic (which is the crux of Time) to mess with Time, I should be able to use Wild Magic to step out of Time as well. The Despiser doesn't need to destroy the Arch. He just needs to get himself outside of the Arch. Who cares if the Arch gets destroyed or not? To explain myself, Foul really wants to get to the place where the Creator is, so he can get revenge. But the Creator has said that he can't reach through the Arch to protect the Land. So, the Creator is outside the Arch. If Wild Magic can create Falls (that so obviously fall outside of Time, and thus, outside the Arch), why not use Wild Magic to just leave Time altogether?

Chris

[wayfriend]

Is it just me, or are the Laws of the Earth not very good laws. If the Law says "You can't do something" but you can do it, then the Law isn't very powerful.

Maybe Law "is more of what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules."

Laws are only ever broken when power and arcana is applied. It's not a 'regular' event. And the fact that, once broken, it stays broken, implies that the power and arcana went towards permanently altering the way the world works, as opposed to getting away with something just the one time. Elena didn't pry open the door to let Kevin out and then shut it again; she broke the door down and left it there.

Other than that, you have to accept that, in SRD's fantasy, this can happen.

Part of the question is whether or not Law comes from EarthPower or from Wild Magic?

But Law doesn't arise from Earthpower. Consider the Elohim - they are Earthpower which is totally opposed to Law. Nor does Law arise from wild magic - wild magic is specifically described as "not born of the Land, nor ruled, limited, subdued by the Law with which the Land was created". Wild Magic is just pure, unadulterated power.

Law arises from the Creator. The Creator created the Law to make the Earth possible. "First he built the arch of Time, so that his creation would have a place in which to be; and for the keystone of that arch he forged the wild magic, so that Time would be able to resist chaos and endure." So Laws (such as Time) were put in place by the Creator, to creat a place amidst the Chaos of the universe in which the Earth can exist. Wild magic is perhaps the power source, but it is not the source of Law.

Seems to me that if I can use Wild Magic (which is the crux of Time) to mess with Time, I should be able to use Wild Magic to step out of Time as well.

Ah. That very well might be true. Perhaps Foul, caring nothing for the Earth, or perhaps wishing to harm the Earth, chooses to destroy the Arch. He may be able to just slip out - but if it's extra effort, why would he bother?

However, let's go back to breaking Laws again. As I said, breaking the Law involves permanently damaging it, not suspending it for one time. So this is of a piece: Foul can't open the Arch, sneek out, and close it again; he must destroy the Arch.

[oconnellc]

I like this discussion of 'law'. I think SRD is playing a little fast and loose with us. Look at it this way... the speed limit is not a law. It is a guideline. You can apply some power (get an 8 cylinder car) and you can break the speedlimit. The law of universal gravitation is a law. The force between two objects is inversly proportional to the cube of the distance between them (or something like that). Regardless of how big the engine in my car is, gravity still exerts a force on me. My big car is just better equipped to overcome that force.

And how can all of these creatures that live outside of law still live inside the arch of time. Doesn't their existance break the law? Now, we are learning all the time that laws aren't exactly what they appear to be. We used to think that time was a constant. Now we think that time is really relative to how fast you are moving (relative to something else). What we used to think was really breaking a law now means that the law isn't what we thought it was. In either case, the law doesn't really have the power we thought it had. And if that is the case, what is the big deal?

So, white gold lets Linden go back in time. Guess what, the law of time has been broken. Cause and effect. What would it matter if she changed history or not. As soon as she changes it, that becomes history. If I run on the beach, my footprints are there, whether I turn behind me to look at them or not. Hell, a Rhanyhin craps on a rock somewhere, depositing a big pile of bacteria. That bacteria causes a new strain of mold to break out and kills all grass across the southern half of the land. Or not. Either way, that rock didn't use to have horse poop on it, but now it does.

So, the reason Foul wouldn't need to break the arch is because 1) he can't. Covenant has set himself up to protect the arch. And 2), he doesn't have to. And really, why should he care about the arch. When you can wreak havoc across the universe, for all of time, why care about killing a few horses and stonedowners? When Linden was in the fall, she was outside of time. She could have stayed there forever and never gotten any older. No cause and effect. Hell, she may HAVE been in there forever! All Foul really needs to do is get Roger to get Joan to give Roger the ring. Then Roger uses the ring to push Foul into a fall. Once there it seems almost arbitrary to choose between pushing him back into a particular time, or right out of time altogether. Just like Foul really wants.

Or, I could be wrong.

I have another question. How "long" was Linden back in time. From what I remember, they spent a day and a night looking for the staff and dining with the waynhim. But when they got back to the present, someone (I can't remember who) said that they came back several days after they left. So, they came back to the future (forgive me for that). If the arch is really supporting time, that shouldn't have been possible. Presumably there is a 'tip' of time, constantly moving forward. You can never go past the tip. Yet she did. That implies that the tip isn't really the tip and that all time exists simultaneously. If that is the case, what does the arch do again?

[finn]

I think the answer to that question is that it IS relative!

[Avatar]

The eternal paradox of time-travel? If something is changed, then when you get back it's always been that way? Or, if you were going to go back and change it, you would already have done so, which meas that nothing is changed?

--Avatar

[wayfriend]

You can apply some power (get an 8 cylinder car) and you can break the speedlimit.

As I tried to point out, SRD's Laws are never broken that way. They are not suspended; they are altered. So this analogy doesn't hold up - you break the speed limit, but the Law remains. A better analogy would be "You could apply some power (take a case to the State Court) and have the speed limit law overturned."

The law of universal gravitation is a law. The force between two objects is inversly proportional to the cube of the distance between them (or something like that).

Again, this analogy doesn't quite match up to SRD's Laws. Obviously, the latter is not unalterable.

And how can all of these creatures that live outside of law still live inside the arch of time. Doesn't their existance break the law?

They do not live outside the Law. (They still die, etc.) It's fairer to say that they are less in tune with the Law due to the nature of their creation.

Think of it this way; the Creator created the Earth and its Laws, and the Creator created the people. So they naturally work well together; they are 'harmonious', if you will. But the ur-viles and the waynihm were created by someone else - creatures of creatures of creatures of the Creator (or something like that). So there is no natural harmony between them and the Earth and it's Laws; they fit together more awkwardly.

So, white gold lets Linden go back in time. Guess what, the law of time has been broken. Cause and effect. What would it matter if she changed history or not.

Ah, here is where it is a matter of author discretion. Every author deals with the paradox of time travel differently. SRD has let out that time travel is possible, and that you may or may not change history, depending on what you do. And if you do change history, the fabric of the world is greatly damaged. Those are his parameters - we have to take them as a given. They were chosen less for scientific reasons than for story-telling reasons, but that's okay.

If that is the case, what does the arch do again?

That's easy, and I said it above, quoting the author: "First he built the arch of Time, so that his creation would have a place in which to be; and for the keystone of that arch he forged the wild magic, so that Time would be able to resist chaos and endure."

The Laws exist to create order and resist chaos. Presumably so the Earth can operate in the way the Creator set forth.

So what ceasures are, in essence, is not the Law being broken; rather, it is working poorly. Back to cars: it isn't totalled, but it's running on only 7 cylenders. And while it is operating poorly, you can do some things you shouldn't be able to do. Like Time Travel. If it was running well, you could not time travel - that's the kind of chaos that the Law is designed to inhibit.

That's my explanation. Laws are put in place by the Creator, so that the Earth operates the way he desires. When you damage or break the Laws, you are more or less causing the Earth to operate poorly. When it's operating poorly, bad things can happen that otherwise would not - things that the Creator tried to keep from happening.

[oconnellc]

As I tried to point out, SRD's Laws are never broken that way. They are not suspended; they are altered. So this analogy doesn't hold up - you break the speed limit, but the Law remains. A better analogy would be "You could apply some power (take a case to the State Court) and have the speed limit law overturned."

So, are you saying that when Elena used the Power of Command she did the equivalent of asking someone else to overturn the Law of Death? I disagree with your Supreme Court analogy. When the Supreme Court (for our friends here in the US. For those friends not in the US, please bear with us) makes a decision, they either say that the Law was not valid in the first place (in which case they are just saying that as the Supreme Court, they are the first people to say out loud that which was true all along) or that the law is valid, it just doesn't apply to this particular case (ignoring those cases where they just say that the lower court made the correct decision). I don't agree at all that either of those things happened to Elena, or to Joan Covenant when she started creating the Falls.

The law of universal gravitation is a law. The force between two objects is inversly proportional to the cube of the distance between them (or something like that).

Again, this analogy doesn't quite match up to SRD's Laws. Obviously, the latter is not unalterable.

I think this is the point I'm making (and maybe no one else is really interested in my point , but if it isn't 'unalterable', then what is the big deal? Why are we supposed to be so concerned about Laws that aren't really Laws? Why would the people of the Land devote themselves to lives of service to these 'suggestions'? If Laws really are what SRD has lead us (or at least 'me') to believe, then Earthpower should never have been able to give Elena the ability to break any laws (since wild magic and law are what provides the framework for Earthpower in the first place).

To quote you out of context

Laws are put in place by the Creator, so that the Earth operates the way he desires.

In my view, the only way the Earth would not operate the way the Creator desires, is if the Laws are broken. I don't see how the Earth 'operating' (Lena invoking the Power of Command) would or could break any Laws (Remember, the Creator went out of his way to make sure there was no white gold anywhere in the Earth. That way, the only wild magic would exist as the Arch itself. Wild Magic could certainly break laws, but it isn't guaranteed. If that were the case, eventually the Arch would just destroy itself (i.e. those loons who believe in Chaos Theory. For example, if the probability that Wild Magic were inherently law breaking were > 0, then it would just be a matter of waiting long enough for the Arch to spontaneously break. Legends told within the Land notwithstanding, it seems likely that given the role of wild magic in supporting the arch and 'time' itself, I would gamble that the probability referred to above really is 0 (zero). What would be the reason for assuming otherwise? All of this is not ignoring the possibility that someone using wild magic couldn't use it in some way counter to its nature to break some laws. To my knowledge, Elena didn't tap into Covenants ring to break the law)).

Sure, the Power of Command is rare and dangerous etc. etc., but how could there possibly be anything 'Unlawful' about using Earthpower? If that were even possible in any remote sense, then the Earth is eventually doomed to failure by its own nature. That seems kind of depressing. Certainly not the sort of place that inspires me to devote my life to serving it.

And how can all of these creatures that live outside of law still live inside the arch of time. Doesn't their existance break the law?

They do not live outside the Law. (They still die, etc.) It's fairer to say that they are less in tune with the Law due to the nature of their creation.

Why? Didn't their creation occur inside the Earth? Unless they were created outside the Earth and then jammed in by some external force, they should be bound by the same laws of the Earth as everyone else. 'Made' or not, their creation took place via some mechanism provided by the 'operation' of the Earth. It is still my opinion that the Earth by its nature will only operate in accordance with Law. O'Connell's first law of Law states:

Lawful action + Lawful action == Lawful result

and its corresponding postulate:

Lawful action + Lawful action != Unlawful result

I don't have a copy of the book. I listened on CD, so I can't go back and confirm this without re-listening to hours and hours to find the right spot, but I seem to recall this big discussion in Runes about how the ur-viles and Waynhim live outside Law. Not that they aren't in 'tune' with it, but they are outside it. If I remember wrong, my bad. Can someone with a book confirm or deny this for me?

So, I'll stop polluting this thread for now, but I will reassert that I think SRD is playing a little fast and loose with his own creation. To paraphrase his own words, the story requires its own internal dignity and some of the things we are seeing are taking away from that dignity. Or, we are about to learn that everything we thought we knew was really wrong! Tom and Jerry really are friends, dogs and cats do live together and the Cubs will win the Series.

I happily await your response.

OC

PS What am I supposed to do with all these land bucks?

[CovenantJr]

PS What am I supposed to do with all these land bucks?

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