Kevin's Watch

Hello all,

Well, I know there has been the occasional thread about the similarities between the Chronicles and LOTR, but some of those threads appear to no longer be accessible (as they were on the old Kevins Watch site). Plus the more I read, the more I find disturbing similarities (keeping in mind that I am an enormous, enormous fan of the Chronicles; i'm just surprised at some of the odd overlaps). Besides the obvious similarity of the plot focusing on a ring of power, there's also:

- Beren One-hand / Berek Halfhand
- Ramen v. Rohan (both horsemasters)
- Forestals vs. Ents
- Both have sentient forests grown dim by human destruction and seeking their revenge
- Council of Lords vs. Council of Wizards
- Both have people being tricked by evil in disguise (Sauron and Elves / Lord Foul and the Old Lords/Kevin)
- Riders/Ravers (although admittedly this comparison isn't quite fair)

There were bunches more that I knew at one time (one for instance could draw a comparison between Kasreyn/croyel and Saruman dealing with Sauron), but I think it's especially with the Ramen and with Beren/Berek that the name overlaps seem particularly striking...

*ducks while fiery arrows are launched in Borillar's direction*

Here we go again...

Well, it has been a few months...

yeah, i read TCTC before LOTR, and as soon as i was done, i noticed some similarities...but i look at it as SRD being influenced...ive never read or heard anywhere that SRD had even READ LOTR(but who involved with fantasy hasnt), but...even after reading both of them, and seeing the similarities..i still got the sense of two totally different stories and worlds...both great, with two totally different styles of writing

I did realize I was probably painting a bullseye on myself by starting this, but I combed through all the available archives (as I mentioned, the ones on the old site don't seem to be available) and there were 2 threads that started on this subject but they both deviated into other subjects. I guess I'm just a little surprised that SRD (whose imagination and creativity seem boundless) would borrow in such a direct fashion. I even wondered if he remember the LOTR bits specifically enough, or whether this overlap was unintentional. There's no doubt he read LOTR; he's acknowledged it as a significant influence on his writing.

In any case, I'm not really sure what I expect people to add to this thread, other than perhaps more examples of similarities.

There are many elements which are similar (compare <i>The Power that Preserves</i> with <i>The Return of the King</i>, with both books featuring doomed military actions to distract the Dark Lord's eye from the really important guy taking the ring into the heart of his domain. _That's_ a blatant steal. Something like Berek/Beren just falls in the category of "hero one-handed because wounded by the enemy", and they are very different wounds for very different purposes.)

But Donaldson has his own take on how the whole thing works. Which makes his work an original creation using his own themes instead of something like Terry Brooks.

Remember, JRRT is the poor reader's SRD.-jay

(Gets chased out by rabid JRRT fans)

Well, I think the obvious similarity is that both stories feature rings!

At least Covenant's ring can *do* something! Sauron's ring just kinda hangs there... doing nothing... (except make Frodo invisible)

Yeah...they should have called the One Ring the One Lame Ring That Makes Frodo Invisible And That's About It.-jay

(Gets beaten with bats by LotR fans)

Here we go again.

It was this type of "discussion" with LOTR fans (of which I am one, but I am also an SRD fan) that brought me to Kevin's Watch in the first place.

Did it ever occur to those who find similarities that both SRD and Tolkien drew at least some of their inspiration and ideas from the same epic legends that have been well known for several centuries?

That would account for at least some of the similarities.

MsMaryMalone wrote:Did it ever occur to those who find similarities that both SRD and Tolkien drew at least some of their inspiration and ideas from the same epic legends that have been well known for several centuries?

That would account for at least some of the similarities.

Bingo.

There is no mistaking that SRD was influenced by Tolkien - he admits it. But the nature of the story is so very different that one cannot claim TCTC as a rip-off of Tolkien. They were both heavily influenced by the epics of the "real" world, the Norse/Germanic legends and their interpretations in particular, I believe.

I seem to remember at least one Tolkien criticizer (I don't remember where) put forth the idea that Tolkien, by "ripping off" Norse legend, wasn't much better than the guys who came after him *cough*Terry Brooks*cough*. I don't agree with this (which is saying something, as I am not much of a Tolkien fan), but the fact remains that the influence exists: Norse myth to Tolkien, Norse Myth and Tolkien to Donaldson. Tolkien didn't take out a copyright on the myths when he borrowed from them. People who contend that everything in the world and history of Middle-Earth is his original creation and his sole property obviously have not read up on the good Professor.

*end rant*

Ah, I take them both for what they are worth: A great ride.

I would concede thievery if the Land had Hobbits or if Middle Earth had Ranyhyn, but even though the stories have vague similarities, they stand on their own strengths.

I can envision the Shire one way, and I envision Andelain another.... they are both good stories and remain that way.

On the point of Ramen, Ranyhyn and the Rohirrim - other than the obvious fact that we're talking about horses, I have never seen the resemblance. I know I've said this briefly elsewhere on the Watch, but I'l say it in more detail here:

The Ranyhyn are a race unto themselves. They are not just horses, they are intelligent, driven, loyal, lorewise creatures so far removed from the animals the Rohirrim raise that comparison is not possible. Yes, there is Shadowfax, and the race he represents; but if he's such a great horse lord, why did he allow Theoden to keep him enslaved? Perhaps Donaldson expanded on the idea of Shadowfax, but Tolkien's horses and Donaldson's Ranyhyn are ultimately worlds apart in concept and spirit.

Likewise the Ramen. The Rohirrim are warriors who ride horses. So were the Mongols, and nobody would compare them to Donaldson's horsefolk. The Ramen are servants to the Ranyhyn, caretakers and warders. I can't actually think of a relationship in LOTR that mirrors the one shared between the Manes and their devoted Ramen.

Ah, here we go again.
Tolkien did not "rip off" Norse legends. He did not want to write an epic fantasy. He was hoping to recreate something of the now lost original English heroic legends and myths he felt were so much missing from today's conscience - before Hastings and the invasion of the Normanns. And since these works are largely lost, he had to reach for Norse, Old Icelandic, Old German, whatever, which he knew had common roots with what he had been seeking for.

I recommend everyone to have a peek at Shippey's Road to Middle-Earth. An excellent work about Tolkien.

This thread should only be open to KW newbies, since those with over 500 posts have obviously gone this route before.

When I read TC's Chronicles, I always thought Drool very much a copy of Gollum.

Wait until the TC movies are compared to the LOTR movies! Oh Jeez!

Sure, there are some things that mirror LOTR. But any artist has similar things in his work from some previous artist, b/c he liked what he saw and it influenced him. I wonder if anything made today is completely original. Only way would be if the creator grew up in a cave and experienced nothing, then created some book or movie or song.

But, it is kinda fun to pick out the similarities. I agree w/the difference b/w Ranyhyn and Rohirrim tho, can't really say they are similar just b/c horses are involved.

Gollum/Drool, never thought of it, but that's pretty funny.

I've said this in other threads concerning this topic. Whatever similarities there are are purely superficial. Once you dig deeper, they disappear.

For those saying the One Ring did nothing (*points at Jay and growls*), it was doing something. It was holding Middle Earth under Sauron. It was a talisman of great evil that could not be used for good. Those that tried failed miserably. So...it did alot. Also, that's your big difference between the rings. The One Ring was evil. It's use would have brought the end to Middle Earth and brought about Sauron's unchecked reign. Covenant's ring was a ring of limitless power, neither good nor evil, it could be used either way, at first. But, as it turns out, it couldn't, because our hero was also it's power. Anyway. There's your difference.

The similarities are just surface stuff.

*takes a deep breath and wanders off grumbling*

Furls Fire wrote:For those saying the One Ring did nothing (*points at Jay and growls*)

Hehe. Sorry. I was just joking around...heh.-jay

Here’s one difference: TCTC is inherently an American story. LOTR is full of the stuff of Old World class distinctions: kings, lords and ladies and the like, even Sam’s annoying kowtowing to “Mr.” Frodo (which at times reminded me of Prissy in Gone With The Wind! As Ursula LeGuin one quipped, someone really ought found a Hobbit Labor Party). The Land is a startlingly egalitarian (and free) place; something which fantasy worlds rarely are since they usually mirror either medieval or ancient societies. The Lords, after all, are not a nobility: they earn their position and they do not rule, they guide and help. Indeed, monarchial rulers, like Rant Absolain, or the King in Berek’s time, are depicted as tyrants. In fact, even more progressive than our own society, distinctions between men and women are almost absent in the Land; only the Haruchai seem to be a classic patriarchial culture.