Kevin's Watch

Interesting reply to my question to SRD on the GI.
Foul is the only one who can influence minds in the real earth. So it was Foul who used Joan, Roger, and others. The Ravers aren't that powerful. This is the first time that SRD has said that Foul has any power other than Despite. In LFB he spirits TC to Kevins Watch (?) Still don't know how he did that. Even when he had the Illearth Stone he just made TC see things. I wonder what other powers he has?

I think in LFB it was Drool Rockworm that sent TC to Kevins Watch under Foul's guidance. I don't think that foul actually did this himself, as we know the Staff of Law was used for this, and Foul never actually used that power directly by himself. Apparently it was not "apt" for his hands, but rather he used others - Drool and dead Elena.

As for the influencing people's minds in the "real" world, thats the first time i've actually thought about it. But didn't he posess someone on the "old council of Lords". This would imply that he at least has that power, no? Sorry if i'm mistaken about any of this but it's a monday morning and i may not have recovered yet from the weekend.

There was a passage in LFB I think that described the summoning like this I think: Foul taught Drool Rockworm how to use the staff to summon TC to the land, but he never used the staff directly himself as it was not made for his hand (and we see later what it did to Drool to be wielding it)

As for the other point, I always had the impression that Foul was actually on the Council as a Lord, not possessing someone on the Council. When he lured the other Lords to a trap it exposed him as being evil, where up to that point he had been a trusted Lord like any other. That's my impression anyway, can't remember an exact passage that says that.

...Try seeing lord OutHouse's power as only which is given to him...you know..the white Gold is only of value to him ,,if it is given to him...It is no good to him if he was say..able to steal it....So, to ask what other powers does he have..when his foundation is based in pure hatred,,despite, loathing,,etc...well,,consider all that ,,that is a pretty substantial basis for starters. He doesn't need any other powers because , with what he has , he can get many others to do his bidding,,as indicated in the above posts.
...In the GI answer SRD said he had Lord below the belt, of only the lesser abilities in the real world. Rather than apply that to Joan's condition,,also consider applying the " hint and suggestive" attributes of Duke of Droopy Drawers to Roger. It seems to me Roger is the victim of listening and following suggestions of despite and loathing. How corrupted he actually has become we will find out if and when TC and his son Roger meet up and have the " Father and Son" talk...I wonder if Roger will go for the " its all your fault dad" rap on concerning Joans mental condition?
....MEL

Lord Foul was on the council. He even passed the test of Staff and Sword. So to do that he must have been able to use lore, and a Sword. He passed the test of truth from the high wood and orcrest also.
Yet he can reach across the cosmos and influence peoples mind's and get them to do all kinds of things, i.e. Joan, Roger, and all the churchy folk.
So he has the power of a Lord in Kevins time, yet he hates Earthpower.

I don't think Drool transported TC to the Watch, but I don't have the book with me. Drool wanted the Ring and Foul told him no, and them told Drool that his time was short or something like that? Why would Drool help Foul after that?

Jerico wrote:Why would Drool help Foul after that?

Because he was utterly outclassed by Foul. Foul is an immortal being of undefined but impressive power, verging on evil incarnate. Drool is fairly slow-witted and basically a heavy lifter. Even with the Staff, surely Drool knows he can't compete.

Jerico wrote:Lord Foul was on the council. He even passed the test of Staff and Sword. So to do that he must have been able to use lore, and a Sword. He passed the test of truth from the high wood and orcrest also.
Yet he can reach across the cosmos and influence peoples mind's and get them to do all kinds of things, i.e. Joan, Roger, and all the churchy folk.
So he has the power of a Lord in Kevins time, yet he hates Earthpower.

Ok, my random thought time!
I hope this wasn't discussed already in the LFB forum but here goes:

Lets assume that he can take a human form that is acceptable by human standards ie: no burning yellow fang-like eyes!

"Lord" "Foul".
"Lord" : Was this a title he earned going through the Loreserat?
I don't think so.
I think he appeared before the gates of Revelstone as a traveler wishing to help the council like some good natured Elohim using powers beyond the comprehension of Kevin and the other Lords.
Would he have been given the title of "Lord" out of respect?
Much like "ur-Lord" Covenant?
(sounds like Sauron working with the Noldor at the beginning of the 2nd Age! He was called "Lord of Gifts")

If that was the case, that he appeared before the Lords as already a being of power, then I can see why Kevin would test him with the Test of Truth with both stone and wood.
After passing he gained acceptance with the Council.

Do we know when the Haruchai appeared in relation to Foul?
If it was before Foul appeared then I wonder what they thought about serving Foul? Who was assigned to him? Bannor? LOL!
No I think that would have been too important not to have been mentioned already!

So Foul was a Lord and left before the Haruchai made their appearance.
I wonder if SRD is going to reveal that Foul was the one that lured the Haruchai west to combat/meet Kevin.
Perhaps after Foul's time with Kevin he learned that Kevin would be driven to a deeper despair after being served by the Haruchai?
SRD could have the Haruchai be the pawns of Foul from the very beginning!
That would be a nice twist.

On the other hand, not my hand though, perhaps he did possess an existing Lord and the Council, detecting a change in one of their fellow Lords, and put him to the Test of Truth which he passed.
Remember these Lords didn't have the New Lords gift of mind melding.
Those Old Lords may have been arrogant sob's for all we know!


I always got the impression that the timeline went like this:

Foul joins the Council, learns all he needs to destroy Kevin and leaves perhaps even on good terms, the Haruchai arrive and take the Vow, the Council is betrayed/destroyed, Foul begins in earnest to War against the Land, Kevin sees no hope of winning and despairs, RoD.


So now we come to "Foul"
Obviously a name that came after the truth was known.
I wonder what was the name that he gave for himself to Kevin?
Was it Austin?
Lord Austin "Danger" Powers?



So what powers could he have displayed to the Council to win them over?
Healing? Maybe, he healed or made it seem to TC that he could heal.
What was there to heal in Kevin's time of the Land anyway?
It was perfection.
Destruction?
Sounds like those Old Lords were pretty powerful in that regard too.
And there was no threat so there was no need.
The Demondim weren't an issue as of yet, (assuming).
Knoweledge about things non Earthpowerful?
That would be my guess.
Knowledge about Wild Magic?
Probably.
Where else would Kevin have heard about it since it was outside of Law?

SRD said that Kevin was a meglomaniac.
Foul probably fed into that big time.

And with Foul being a being outside of Time itself perhaps he knew that he would be taking the steps to summon TC by feeding Kevin the White Gold information.

What was Kevin's view of the world anyway?
The Giants would have told many tales.
But they had no WM lore.
His great Grandfather probably would have brought back legends and tales gleaned from his travels to the One Tree.
(Unless he took the nonscenic route)
How did Berek get there anyway?
I wonder from where did he set sail.
The future area of the Coercri?
Or some Old Kingdom port east of the Southron Wastes?
Where was Berek's "Home" during his High Lordship anyway, Doriendor Corishev?
It must have been still some kind a city up until the time everyone could migrate to Revelstone.

Obviously there are no answers as of yet and I'm just delving into fanfic but those are my thoughts and questions today.

Foul was a member of the Council. The books say that Foul passed both the Sword and the Staff. The way the book reads and putting it together with what SRD says in the GI. Foul wasn't in the Land or interested in the Lords or Earthpower until they became strong enough to do him some good. i.e. Kevin. Kevin was the most powerful of the old lords. So Foul wasn't around, meaning they didn't know they had anything to fear from someone named Foul. They didn't know of the Despiser. Only the Ravers were known.
Nothing in the books say if Huruchai were around when Foul was.

Berek found the one tree in the Land, not on the Island.

Foul was just another Lord to the Council, he sat on kevin's right side. A sign of power.

The Viles were around before Kevin so we can assume the Demondin were there, but maybe not yet evil?

The legend of wild magic came down from Berek.

The books say that Foul passed both the Sword and the Staff

I'm sorry, but where does it say that? Was there a Loresraat prior to the Desecration?

Berek found the one tree in the Land, not on the Island.

Not true. It may not have been on an island, but it was not in the Land.

Jerico wrote:Foul wasn't in the Land or interested in the Lords or Earthpower until they became strong enough to do him some good. i.e. Kevin. Kevin was the most powerful of the old lords. So Foul wasn't around, meaning they didn't know they had anything to fear from someone named Foul. They didn't know of the Despiser. Only the Ravers were known.

It's true that we don't know if anyone knew who/what Foul was before open warfare started. Kevin had his unfounded doubts about his friend, but we don't know that he thought anything specific.

However, Foul was there long before Kevin. After the Ravers were mastered by the Despiser, samadhi possessed Bereks king. Later, but still before Kevin, turiya and moksha corrupted the Demondim, and Loric used his krill to slay the Demondim guise of moksha.

Jerico wrote:Nothing in the books say if Huruchai were around when Foul was.

Of course they were there. They were there for the entire war between Kevin and Foul. Kevin ordered the Bloodguard into the mountains before he performed the RoD. And Foul couldn't have already attacked (although he may have already been on the Council) before the Haruchai took the Vow, because the Haruchai, of all people, would have noticed signs of war as they marched through the Land. But there were none. And Kevin and the Giants appeared to be calm, happy, laughing - not at all like people at war.

However, Foul was there long before Kevin. After the Ravers were mastered by the Despiser, samadhi possessed Bereks king. Later, but still before Kevin, turiya and moksha corrupted the Demondim, and Loric used his krill to slay the Demondim guise of moksha.

SRD believes that Foul would have had no interest in the Land before Kevin's time, and believes the Despiser was probably in other parts of the world, which is why Kevin didn't recognise him. At the moment it seems that he's trying to establish in the Last Chrons that this other stuff was done by the ravers independant of Foul.

And with Foul being a being outside of Time itself perhaps he knew that he would be taking the steps to summon TC by feeding Kevin the White Gold information.

Hmm. Maybe Foul hoped that Kevin would perform that summoning—though who would have been summoned? At that point (3 ½ years Real World time before LFB begins) was TC even married to Joan? For sure he wasn’t yet a leper.

Foul wasn't in the Land or interested in the Lords or Earthpower until they became strong enough to do him some good.

Isn’t there some implication that Foul was present (though not bodily) at the climactic battle between Berek and the King? I recall something about a gray shadow that came over the battlefield and made the soldiers fight in complete viciousness.

Aleksandr wrote:I recall something about a gray shadow that came over the battlefield and made the soldiers fight in complete viciousness.

As do I. That had to be Foul - Ravers just don't have that kind of power.

Fist and Faith wrote:

Jerico wrote:Nothing in the books say if Huruchai were around when Foul was.

Of course they were there. They were there for the entire war between Kevin and Foul.

I think we were talking about the Haruchai/Bloodguard being at Revelstone at the same time as Foul being a Lord.

Foul must have left before they entered the Land or I think we must have heard how the Bloodguard served Lord Foul.
Hence my joke about Bannor serving Lord Foul.
That's kind of a big thing for SRD to omit, imho.

Remember, we're talking a 1000 years here of Kevin's HighLordship.
That's a lot of time for things to happen.

I haven't had time to read the GI lately. Does anyone know what date's response has SRD saying Foul wasn't interested in the Land before Kevin's time?

11/18/04

Spoiler

And then there's the curious fact that Kevin's Council failed to recognize LF. How, I ask myself, could that have happened if the Old Lords had any previous experience of the Despiser? I may be getting myself in trouble here; but I suspect that LF didn't come to the Land until the Old Lords became powerful enough to be useful to him.

Thanks Murrin.

IMO, this is a mistake on SRD's part. (Yeah, I'm sure he'll lose sleep over my opinion. ) Remember what Mhoram learned when samadhi touched him:

"But it was not Despite which the Colossus resisted," Mhoram resumed when his song was done. "Despite was the bane of men. It came with them into the Land from the cold anguish of the north, and from the hungry kingdom of the south. No, the Colossus of the Fall forbade another foe - three tree- and soil-hating brothers who were old in the Spoiled Plains before Lord Foul first cast his shadow there. They were triplets, the spawn of one birth from the womb of their long-forgotten mother, and their names were samadhi, moksha, and turiya. They hated the Earth and all its growing things, just as Lord Foul hates all life and love. When the Colossus eased its interdict, they came to the Upper Land, and in their lust for revenge and dismay fell swiftly under the mastery of the Despiser. From that time, they have been his highest servants..."

......

"We knew that they were named Sheol, Jehannum, and Harem, and that they lived without bodies, feeding upon the souls of others. When the Despiser was powerful enough to give them strength, they enslaved creatures or people by entering into their bodies, subduing their wills, and using the captured flesh to enact their master's purposes. Disguised in forms not their own, they were well hidden, and so could gain trust among their foes. By that means, many brave defenders of the Land were lured to their deaths in the age of the Old Lords."

The best I can figure is that Foul himself did not go into the Land until Kevin's time, but had the Ravers possess Berek's king and corrupt and possess the Demondim. After all, SRD only said "I suspect that LF didn't come to the Land until..." He didn't say Foul wasn't involved in the Land at all. Maybe he was using the Ravers to test the waters. Or maybe he had the Ravers do those things to increase human use of Earthpower. Maybe he hoped the Earthpower would speak to the last defender of beauty, and start the lore; and that Loric would be forced to create a hugely powerful weapon under those circumstances. Maybe the huge plan was to make humans powerful and lore-wise enough to summon white gold. (He was probably annoyed that Kevin didn't figure out how to do it. "Fool! I arrange for you to have the Staff of Law, the krill, and all this lore, and you still can't summon white gold?!?!?")

Fist and Faith wrote:

"[...] When the Colossus eased its interdict, they came to the Upper Land, and in their lust for revenge and dismay fell swiftly under the mastery of the Despiser.

[...]The best I can figure is that Foul himself did not go into the Land until Kevin's time, but had the Ravers possess Berek's king and corrupt and possess the Demondim.

One could read this textual reference as saying that the Ravers did not enounter Foul until they reached the upper Land, which is where Foul was at that time.

Lord Foul is quite capable of going for extended periods of time without anyone's company but his own. He may have been around for quite a while in the upper Land, watching and whispering, without anyone actually meeting him.