Kevin's Watch

Hey all...
OK, I don't want this to be a debate on atheism, proof of god, or any of that sort of thing. Basically, I'm an atheist, but I also consider myself a very spiritual person. For me, spirituality is a feeling as opposed to a belief system, sort of a mode of meditation or what have you. I was wondering what any other atheists (or theists with opinions) might think about the possibility of a spiritual atheist.

To this heart, there is nothing holier than music. Writing and reading comes a distant second. Video games, eating, sleeping, laughing, crying, walking, mowing thegrass, climbing a tree, breathing, watching, learning. "Learn, Love, Live"--my motto. Everything is spiritual to me. Typing this, feeling the earth under my feet, seeing the desk around me. These are sparse, few moments, and I'll treasure it all. It's all beautiful to me, I enjoy it; it's my way of breaking through to glory.

I have been contemplating the intrinsic beauty of fruit lately. Whatever my personal path is I'm very happy with it right now. Other than that I try not to worry...

Atheist-"one who believes that there is no deity".

Spiritualist-"1 : the view that spirit is a prime element of reality
2 a : a belief that spirits of the dead communicate with the living usually through a medium b capitalized : a movement comprising religious organizations emphasizing spiritualism"

Spirit-"a supernatural being or essence: as a capitalized : HOLY SPIRIT b : SOUL 2a c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : GHOST 2 d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being"

I think I may understand what you're talking about, but to avoid confusion and misunderstanding, please explain what you mean by "atheist" and "spiritual", because they seem to be somewhat exclusive of each other.

Well, that's exactly the problem. I'm trying to describe an emotion with language (always a sticky thing).
I don't question my atheism. It's a new thing, not an old thing, I grew up believing in a catholic god, then in some kind of mythical ideal knowledge-enlightenment god, and when it finally sunk in that I honestly didn't believe in anything of the sort, everything kind of crystalized for me in a way that clicked as "right".
However, my habits of meditation, tarot cards, and reading religious texts never changed, and I still get the same feeling of sublime mystery at times, that I used to connect with religion...
Religion and spirituality have been a part of the human race for as far back as we've been able to learn, correct?
Is there an emotion directly associated with the idea of a religious feeling?

Cail: 'Spiritual' can also be a rather general term meaning "not tangible or material"; it needn't be religious.

Tarot cards, the Bible, etc! It's all occult gibberish to me! (see you're all worrying too much! )

I think I gotcha. You don't believe in any god (or God), correct? Your feeling of sublime mystery, your experience with tarot cards, your medetation...Do you feel that that all comes from you, or do you feel that there is "something else" out there?

For reference, I don't think it's possible for a real atheist to be spiritual since they deny the existence of anything greater than them, I do believe that agnostics can be (and usually are) very spiritual. Not a knock, just an observation.

What he said.









OK.

We can be spiritual without being religious. Even without having a soul. (If that turns out to be the case.) Believing that there is nothing other than the physical universe that we know through our senses does not mean that I have no spiritual side. Atheists can be spiritual people.

Spirituality is the recognition of the beauty of the universe, of yourself, and of your place in the universe.

The beauty of the universe needs no defining. Each individual sees it differently. Some see it in the aurora borealis. Others see it in the incredible precision of tens of thousands of ants making up a colony, or billions of stars making up a galaxy.

The beauty of yourself is as individual a thing as the beauty of the universe. But sometimes people need to be shown just how many ways there are to be beautiful. The beauty of J.S. Bach, Michelangelo, Baryshnikov, and Mother Teresa seem obvious. But just because these people are (arguably) the top of their fields, doesn't mean there can't be an infinite number of others of equal beauty in the same fields. The purity of the act is more important than the result.

But there are many other types of human beauty. Many of us know someone who we describe as “a wonderful person.” Their kindness, humor, and patience are beautiful.

As for our place in the universe - The definition of the universe is: Me, you, the sun, Pluto, Jupiter and its moons, the Milky Way galaxy, the star Rigel, the solar winds, the free hydrogen atoms everywhere between the stars, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

Notice that you are second on the list. (At least in my ordering. Feel free to put yourself first! ) You are part of the definition of the universe. In other words, if you never existed, the universe would be defined differently! You are just as much a part of this universe as any galaxy is. Sure, it might exist without any of us, or any star or galaxy or black hole. But it would not be the universe that we know. We are all part of the definition. And what's more, in the eyes of the unimaginably gigantic universe, the Andromeda galaxy is not much bigger than you are. Basically, you are equal to a galaxy. Not bad.

Nor is the universe defined only by this moment. You are not defined by the single instant that you are experiencing right now. Every moment of your entire lifespan must be considered as part of the definition of you. Should your entire childhood be ignored when saying who you are? Same goes for the universe. Everything that ever existed, or ever will exist in the universe's huge lifespan is part of its definition. In 1,000,000,000,000,000 years, you are still a part of the definition of the universe.

In A Wizard of Earthsea, Urlula K. Le Guin puts it this way. After Ged, the wizard, explains to a girl that light is a great power, she asks, if it is not a secret, what other great powers there are.

"It is no secret. All power is one in source and end, I think. Years and distances, stars and candles, water and wind and wizardry, the craft in a man's hand and the wisdom in a tree's root: they all arise together. My name, and yours, and the true name of the sun, or a spring of water, or an unborn child, all are syllables of the great word that is very slowly spoken by the shining of the stars. There is no other power. No other name."

And remember Brinn telling us about ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol:

"It is said that he has mastered all skill and prowess that we desire, all restraint and calm, and has become perfection. Passion and mastery like unto the poised grandeur of mountains."

This speaks of his beauty, because of the dedication and purity he gave toward his goals. His dedication and purity are as admirable as a mountain's beauty. It also says that a person is no smaller, in the grand scheme of things, than a mountain.

Even the word “holy” can be used without religious connotations. From The Glass Bead Game, by Herman Hesse:

I suddenly realized that in the language, or at any rate in the spirit of the Glass Bead Game, everything actually was all-meaningful, that every symbol and combination of symbols led not hither and yon, not to single examples, experiments, and proofs, but into the center, the mystery and innermost heart of the world, into primal knowledge. Every transition from major to minor in a sonata, every transformation of a myth or a religious cult, every classical or artistic formulation was, I realized in that flashing moment, if seen with a truly meditative mind, nothing but a direct route into the interior of the cosmic mystery, where in the alternation between inhaling and exhaling, between heaven and earth, between Yin and Yang, holiness is forever being created.

OK then what is the "spirit" in spiritual? Obviously not the Holy Spirit. Ghosts? In order to be "spiritual" there has to be some sort of spirit. I know exactly what y'all are talking about, I just think you're using the wrong word.

Well said, Fist! And, as an atheist, I don't deny that there are beings great than I; I acknowledge them here every day.

I'm not an anything, I beat Aristotle in my dreams! I have gobs of faith, but in what? I severely get off on the whatever-it-is hyper-intelligence that holds everything together. I really try to practice ahimsa and apologize profusely to everyone I yell at on the road...other than that,

Tell you 'bout a dream that I have every night
Tell you 'bout a Dream that I have every night
It ain't kodachrome and it isn't black and white
Take me for a fool if you feel that's right
Well I'm Never on my own but there's nobody in sight
I don't know if I'm scared of the Lightning
Trying to reach me
I can't turn to the left or the right
I'm too scared to run and I'm too weak to fight
But I don't Care it's all psychobabble rap to me
Tell you 'bout a dream that I have every night
It's in dolby stereo but I never hear it right
Take me for a fool well that's alright
Well I see the way to go But there isn't any light
I don't know why I'm scared of the lightning
Trying to reach me
Help me to find what I don't wanna know
You're taking me There but I don't wanna go
I don't care it's all Psychobabble rap to me
Psychobabble all psychobabble
Psychobabble all psychobabble
I don't care it's all psychobabble rap to me
You're readin' my mind you won't look in my eyes
You say I do things that I don't Realise
But I don't care it's all psychobabble rap to me
Psychobabble all psychobabble
Psychobabble all psychobabble
You're lighting a scene that's faded to black
I threw it away cause I don't want it back
But I don't care it's all psychbabble rap

Beauty is a good word for it I think.
Thanks Fist Actually, I was hoping to draw out a big ole' post from you on this when I started the thread.

(he just copied it from the Hangar, the lazy bum! )

OK Jem, that makes sense. Of course atheists are capable of seeing beauty in the world.

What?! He DID, did he?! Huh, well, we'll see about THAT!

LOL Jem!

danlo, I copied them both from my own site, where I fiddle with all these questions. Alas, Fravashi never got the traffic we get here.

Cail wrote:OK then what is the "spirit" in spiritual? Obviously not the Holy Spirit. Ghosts? In order to be "spiritual" there has to be some sort of spirit. I know exactly what y'all are talking about, I just think you're using the wrong word.

The spirit is the human spirit. That which strives. That which searches for beauty, wisdom, meaning. Here's some more quotes.

Jung:

The meaning and purpose of a problem seem to lie not in its solution but in our working at it incessantly.

Chris, from Northern Exposure:

I've been out here now for some days, groping my way along, trying to realize my vision here. I started concentrating so hard on my vision that I lost sight. I've come to find out that it's not the vision. It's not the vision at all. It's the groping. It's the groping, it's the yearning, it's the moving forward. I was so fixated on that flying cow that, when Ed told me Monty Python already painted that picture, thought I was through. I had to let go of that cow so that I could see all the other possibilities....... I think Kierkegard said it oh so well: “The self is only that which it’s in the process of becoming.” Art? Same thing. James Joyce had something to say about it too: “Welcome oh life! I go to encounter for the millionth time the reality of experience, and to forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscious of my race.” We’re here today to fling something that bubbled up from the collective unconsciousness of our community......... The thing I learned folks, this is absolutely key: It’s not the thing you fling, it’s the fling itself.

Trek quote #1 - Data and his daughter (he made a daughter in one episode):

Lal: I watch them, and I can do the things they do. But I will never feel the emotions. I’ll never know love.

Data: It is a limitation we must learn to accept, Lal.

Lal: Then why do you still try to emulate humans. What purpose does it serve, except to remind you that you are incomplete?

Data: I have asked myself that, many times, as I have struggled to be more human. Until I realized it is the struggle itself that is most important. We must strive to be more than we are, Lal. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards.

Trek quote #2 - Data and Dr. Crusher:

Data: What is the definition of life?

Crusher: That is a BIG question. Why do you ask?

Data: I am searching for a definition that will allow me to test an hypotheses.

Crusher: Well, the broadest scientific definition might be that life is what enables plants and animals to consume food, derive energy from it, grow, adapt themselves to their surrounding, and reproduce.

Data: And you suggest that anything that exhibits these characteristics is considered alive.

Crusher: In general, yes.

Data: What about fire?

Crusher: Fire?

Data: Yes. It consumes fuel to produce energy. It grows. It creates offspring. By your definition, is it alive?

Crusher: Fire is a chemical reaction. You could use the same argument for growing crystals. But, obviously, we don't consider them alive.

Data: And what about me? I do not grow. I do not reprodue. Yet I am considered to be alive.

Crusher: That's true. But you are unique.

Data: Hm. I wonder if that is so.

Crusher: Data, if I may ask, what exactly are you getting at?

Data: I am curious as to what transpired between the moment when I was nothing more than an assemblage of parts in Dr. Sung's laboratory and the next moment, when I became alive. What is it that endowed me with life?

Crusher: I remember Wesley asking me a similar question when he was little. And I tried desperately to give him an answer. But everything I said sounded inadequate. Then I realized that scientists and philosophers have been grappling with that question for centuries without coming to any conclusion.

Data: Are you saying the question cannot be answered?

Crusher: No. I think I'm saying that we struggle all our lives to answer it. That it's the struggle that is important. That's what helps us to define our place in the universe.

you didn't really think he could type that fast did you? (I bet that's not all you "fiddle with" there! )

So, what you're basically saying is, to butcher Shakespeare's words to death: There is more to life than is dreampt of in your philosophies, Horatio.

Whether Fist types it all out every time or just copies and pastes it, the fact is, when he's in the mood, he can respond to a question more deeply and eloquently than almost anybody else on the Watch.

I see! Calling me trite and baseless, in other words...thanks alot buddy!