Kevin's Watch

I do.
I hate hate hate it!
It almost ruins the whole thing for me.
The One Tree is some kind of horn or antler on a sleeping cosmic Worm?
HUH?
The Worm is the basis or foundation of the entire Earth?
WTF!??
I hate hate hate hate it.
Mhoram's creation theory is lovely and works well with the story.
The Elohim should be the Creator's children that got sealed within the Arch.

Have I mentioned that I dislike the whole star devouring worm thing?

It's not that I dislike worms in general.
They serve a noble and nessesary function.
In my GARDEN!
Not as the foundation of my favorite fantasy world, thank you Mr Donaldson.


I'm being funny but does the Worm image ruin it for anyone else?

I don't have a huge problem with it. It's not unusual for different cultures to have seperate creation legends. The Braithair probably had their own story, we were just never told what it was.

The "Rainbow Creation" (for lack of a better term) came from the people of the Land. I believe Lord Tamarantha was the first to tell it to Covenant.

The Worm story came from the Elohim via the Giants. Since the Elohim consider themselves the Earth's Wurd, it is not unusual that their story would essentially deny an omnipotent Creator.

..Sorry Your Highness..I've been enamored with " worm" ever since "Dune". ...As far as creation storys..lets see, theres the Turtle,,The Bear,,The Twins, The Raven, The Coyote, etc, etc, etc. The whole menagery populated by each tribe's ,,each society's contribution. But,,to consciously choose The Worm...??....perchance did a recent B.C. cartoon strip bother you?.......I have no problem with the choice of Worm. In a way..it is more Universal( its of both sexes you know) than the common creation Creature...So when told to,,well,,it can. There is something admirable of that attribute..........besides,,many a fish I've caught with worm sacrificed..I owe them some respect...............MEL

I'm being funny but does the Worm image ruin it for anyone else?

It kind of did when I first read The One Tree. It seemed like SRD was pulling the rug from under our feet.

Actually, what made things seem worse in some ways was when I eventually came to believe that there was no one “right” world concept; that the elohim’s “Würd,” and the other W-words were maybe just all different ways of looking at the world. Just a little too much relativism for my taste, and I could never square that relativism with the specifics of what happened at the One Tree. If it isn’t specifically a big Worm, then what happened there and why? Why don’t the elohim just call it a Worm and be done with it?

It seemed as if the previously introduced Creator theory was getting shorter shrift in the 2nd Chronicles. That was problematic for me only in that squaring the Creator theory with the old man in the ochre robe requires no further work.

But if the world is what grew on the Worm’s back when it rested, then what is the old man? A manifestation of the Worm’s power? And he gets to TC’s world, how? And speaks as if he has an interest in The Land’s world, why? And cares at all, how come? Certainly there’s nothing in any of the Worm / Würd stories to suggest that it knows or cares about the world on its back. You can retro-fit some explanation, but whatever it is seems awkward.

And I agree with you in general that the story is a bit ugly and messy. It’s hard to see JRRT or GGK coming up with it, but not every author is trying to be JRRT. I’m sure that Terry Pratchett readers don’t even blink at it.

See I don't think that there's a Worm per se..they used the term Worm for the ease of the Giants. It's their Word of the world's end. If you think about it in that sense, It's understandable why the Elohim were so scarred that TC would rouse the Worm. They were scarred that he would force them to end the World...after all it's their Wurd!!
Using the Christian/Hebrew creationism story...mnost don't acctually beleive there were two people named Adam and Eve, and most don't beleive that the world was created in 6 days...but it makes it easier to understand.-There was no tree of Forbidden knowledge--just as there is no worm..But our craving for Knowlegde made us loose our Eden...and overuse of power will break the arch of time.
Is this making sense HLT?
The main reason that it's a Worm..is becauseof it's sound-alike to Word and Wurd.

The main reason that it's a Worm..is becauseof it's sound-alike to Word and Wurd.

Drew, I agree that it’s more plausible in some ways and less ridiculous than the World actually being a growth on a Worm for that to be just a way for the elohim to explain it to others. But the problem the Worm-as-metaphor theory has is that is doesn’t for me satisfactorily explain the events at the One Tree. It was the proximity to the Worm (rather than the absolute amount of Wild Magic concerned) that threatened the Arch of Time. That is, unless we’re to ignore the text entirely!

Also, IIRC Findail frantically described what was happening as the Worm being awakened.

That’s why I reluctantly came to the conclusion that within the series, all the Creation stories are correct (including the Creator one, in part because of the old man).

I always thought the whole multiple-theories for creation was pretty cool. It gives the series more depth. Makes the story more interesting and realistic.

It would be pretty funny if it turned out at the end that there really is some giant worm sleeping under the earth. Heh.-jay

Jay wrote:I always thought the whole multiple-theories for creation was pretty cool. It gives the series more depth. Makes the story more interesting and realistic.

I agree! I've always imagined the Worm in it's animated state like "The Doomsday Machine" from the first Star Trek episodes-The Worm Oroborous! Nicor! Nuclear Earthpower! I love it!

Truth be told, I see no paradox in taking the story both metaphorically and literally. As for all creation myths, one must consider the context in which they developed; in this case, we know little about elohim culture, except for what we see in The One Tree. Furthermore, some creation myths in our real world may seem even weirder - as it was mentioned before, think Coyote, for example. I actually believe that the Worm myth has that feeling of antiqueness, strangeness and cosmological depth which makes me fly with my imagination and think of the beginnings of the world of the Land - and that is what myths are supposed to do, even in our world. The fact that it's a strange tale - utterly unlike anything else we have heard in the Land - only seems to reinforce the feeling that the story does not have its origins among the people of the world of the Land - and that it speaks of entities too vast and unfathomable for a mortal mind to understand.

I don't think the Worm is despised because it's an alternate creation myth. I think the Worm is despised because it looks as if two alternate and conflicting creation myths are both real and true at the same time.

It's kind of like the rape in that sense. You just get good and comfortable with the story, and then blam! What's this Worm thing? What happened to the old man and Lord Foul and the Arch of Time? I just got good and comfortable with the whole setup, and you pulled out the rug ...

This is going to be the subject if my next Reading Runes topic, btw. Ah, well, I hope I have enough new material after this thread sucks it dry...

It is sort of odd though that there's no discussion of the Worm anywhere else in the series, just in TOT.

He's got the whole worm, in His hands
He's got the whole wild worm, in His hands.........

Wayfriend wrote:I don't think the Worm is despised because it's an alternate creation myth. I think the Worm is despised because it looks as if two alternate and conflicting creation myths are both real and true at the same time.

Exactly! It bothered the hell out of me at the time, and still makes me uncomfortable. And in Runes the story seems to be, 'What old man in an ochre robe?' It's as if the Creator, who was vividly established as a real character in The Power That Preserves, is now being soft-pedalled right out of existence.

I don't like that. Reality isn't like that; things that exist don't vanish so thoroughly that they never existed at all. There are no dinosaurs walking the earth today, but nobody can take away their existence in the past: the bones are everywhere.

A story that plays that fast and loose with its own history is lacking in the most important attribute of realism: self-consistency. If a fantasy story is self-consistent and resonates with the reader's emotions, that's as real as it needs to be; if not, no amount of 'realistic' detail will save it.

I certainly hope SRD has some method in mind of resolving the paradox. And none of this 'steering between poles of contradiction' stuff, either. The Creator is real, and the Worm is real, for we have seen them both in action. So there must be some relationship between them. Somebody is not telling that story.

I love the worm concept, but agree with what VF says; it needs to be resolved with the Creator.

Patience, patience. We know that the Creator will be a part of the Last Chrons, because Linden brought it up. If the camera zooms in on a gun on the wall in the first five minutes of a movie, rest assured that gun will be fired at some point.

Thaale wrote:Actually, what made things seem worse in some ways was when I eventually came to believe that there was no one “right” world concept; that the elohim’s “Würd,” and the other W-words were maybe just all different ways of looking at the world. Just a little too much relativism for my taste...

And yet, that relativism is the cornerstone of all the books. The different races and species have entirely different names for Foul because they have entirely different outlooks on life and reality. The New Lords couldn't use Kevin's Lore because they had a fundamentally different attitude than the Old Lords. SRD gave each of the Ravers opposing names - one for how they view themselves, and one for how others view them. Runes spoiler:

Spoiler

Esmer is caught between violently different ways of life.

Take away the relativism, and there is no TCTC.

Wayfriend wrote:I don't think the Worm is despised because it's an alternate creation myth. I think the Worm is despised because it looks as if two alternate and conflicting creation myths are both real and true at the same time.

It's kind of like the rape in that sense. You just get good and comfortable with the story, and then blam! What's this Worm thing? What happened to the old man and Lord Foul and the Arch of Time? I just got good and comfortable with the whole setup, and you pulled out the rug ...

YES!
Thank you.
That was what I was trying to get at.
You summed it up better than I.

The fact that there are other animal creation myths for *our* Earth doesn't matter.
This isn't a "myth" as far as the reality of the Land goes.
It's reality.
We've seen Covenant interact with the Creator and battle the "devil", so to speak!
It doesn't get anymore real than that, imho.
Nothing else we've been given has been up to interpretation.
Saying that the Elohim dumbed the creation story down for the Giants is just a wild guess with nothing to back it up.

The very existance of the Worm throws what I'll call the "Mohram creation theory" out the window or cheapens the work of the Creator.

I hope that the Worm story evolves or changes into someting else as we learn more in the Final series.

Fist and Faith wrote:And yet, that relativism is the cornerstone of all the books. The different races and species have entirely different names for Foul because they have entirely different outlooks on life and reality. The New Lords couldn't use Kevin's Lore because they had a fundamentally different attitude than the Old Lords. SRD gave each of the Ravers opposing names - one for how they view themselves, and one for how others view them. Take away the relativism, and there is no TCTC.

I'd call that relativity, not relativism. The difference? Relativity is the idea that things appear different to different observers, which we all know to be true. Relativism is the idea that things really are different for different observers, and that a thing can exist for one person and simultaneously not exist for another. TCTC depends very heavily on relativity, and on people's different and imperfect understandings of what is going on. (All SRD's books do this, The Gap above all.) But we still have the assurance that there is a 'real story' that can reconcile all these different points of view.

The different peoples have different names for the Despiser, but they all agree that he exists and is the enemy of the Earth. (Even the Clave knew that much.) And when the New Lords were unable to use Kevin's Lore, that was because they simply couldn't understand it. They did not have their own understanding that was contradictory but somehow equally valid. Inasmuch as their understanding was different, it was invalid, and that's why they failed to master the Wards. And the Ravers were what they were, regardless of anybody's opinion about them. Why, moksha called himself Jehannum at Soaring Woodhelven.

Well, sort of like what I was saying before, I think the fact that SRD added this alternative creation theory makes the whole thing just so much more interesting. If all we had was the "Creator created the land...blah blah blah" theory, well, that would be it and there could be no discussion like the one we're having now. But by adding the Worm, SRD added a whole new area of debate. It makes the whole series a lot more non-linear, which I think is pretty cool.

And yeah, I really think, and hope, that by the end of the last book, that SRD will have brought a little light on the two theories. Either that, or he'll just leave it completely open like it is now just to piss us off. Heh.-jay

A "baking" analogy comes to mind: The Creator saw the Worm rotating in the middle of space, all curled up, satisfied and hibernating and said, "Hey I think I'll create a crust and life on this sucker and see what happens!" So the Worm is the cake and the Creator is the icer...

Mmmmmmmmmm, wormcake!!!!!!!!

I'm with Jay, it gives depth to the whole Chrons. And I don't mind unsolved puzzles here any more than I do in my life, even though I expect SRD to solve this one.

Hey, maybe the beggar wasn't the Creator. He seemed to have some tricks, and talked some good stuff, but he surely didn't prove that he was the Creator.