Kevin's Watch

ROBERT JORDAN sold the first three books in his new Infinity of Heaven series, "high fantasy with a touch of Shogun," to Tom Doherty at Tor.

Patrick
www.fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com

I can only express my reaction to this as "WTF, another reason why WOT will never be finished?"

Reminds me of another question I've been pondering for a while - has Mr Rigney(sp?) been publishing under his other names while still working on the Wheel of Time series?

ROBERT JORDAN sold the first three books in his new Infinity of Heaven series, "high fantasy with a touch of Shogun," to Tom Doherty at Tor.

Wow. Now he's adding Lian Hearn to the long list of authors he shamelessly "borrows from"?

Warmark Jay wrote:

ROBERT JORDAN sold the first three books in his new Infinity of Heaven series, "high fantasy with a touch of Shogun," to Tom Doherty at Tor.

Wow. Now he's adding Lian Hearn to the long list of authors he shamelessly "borrows from"?

Sure sounds like it might be the case.

But Hearn was able to tell a quite wonderful story with engaging characters in three rather short novels. I doubt that will be the case with Jordan.

Boy am I confused. First, why does Hearn hold a monopoly on Asian or Japanese influences? Does that mean Kij Johnson borrows from Lian Hearn? Of course not. And, of course, I am sure that the fact that Jordan has been talking about this shipwrecked series since the early nineties, long before Hearn was even published matters nothing (the shipwrecked character dealing with a completely foreign and incomprehensible culture and society the Shogun reference) I am sure. After all, Lian Hearn is all things Japanese, I guess. Even plotlines on books based in Japan. Clavell should be ashamed. And by the way, the whole shipwrecked tie is the only tie Jordan has ever mentioned in terms of Shogun. Not copying off Lian Hearn who still has that death grip on all things Japanese by having the audacity of using any Japanese cultural references. I mean who does Jordan think he is!

And selling the rights to books is hardly the same thing as committing to writing the books. All he has done is sign a contract that says that Tor gets to publish the books when he writes them. They will be written after he finishes the WoT series and the first book will likely be written and published before the second of the Wheel of Time prequels.

Locus Magazine was the source for the sale of the three books. And having just read similar villagers-with-torches reponses elsewhere, it should be noted for the un-informed, that this type of transaction happens all the time. Donaldson having sold all four books in The Last Chronicles...
for instance.

So knickers can be unknotted and outrage on behalf of Ms Lian All-Things-Japanese-Belong-to-Her Hearn can be eased a bit.

Jordan has the right to publish whatever he wants.

He also has the right to blatantly copy whichever writers he wishes to (such as Frank Herbert).

I have the right to complain about his lack of originality in said copying from other writers.

I also have the right to complain about Jordan writing hundreds of pages of filler (such as WOT book 10) rather than advancing his plot in any significant way.

And here he is trying to sell a new series when he has so far to go on the one he has been writing for how many years now?

Yep, I have the right to complain about that, too.

And anyone else certainly has the right to disagree with me as they see fit.

For what it's worth, Duchess, I agree with you.

What?!? A professional author has actually agreed to write some more books sometime in the future?

Shock! Horror!

Love him or hate him, Robert Jordan is very good for fantasy because his series transcends the genre. Along with Rowling's Harry Potter, they are the only two author which have managed to do that. Which means that many other writers are benefiting from that.

As far as signing for his new series at this moment rather than later, if you are aware of how negotiating contracts work, you should know that Tom Doherty at Tor Books probably was able to sign him down for less today, by agreeing to sign for the first three books of a future series. By acting thus, Doherty prevented the rights of the series to go to auction, where they would have attracted every publisher in North America, and which arguably would have become the most expensive rights ever sold in fantasy fiction history. So in the end, it is just good business done by a good businessman!

By the way, the interview I did with L. E. Modesitt, jr. has generated a lot of positive responses. Nearly as much as the one I did with Tad Williams! Check it out, if you haven't already! Thanks, Edge, for letting me know about the replies on his own board...

Patrick
www.fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com

Edge wrote:What?!? A professional author has actually agreed to write some more books sometime in the future?

Shock! Horror!

My main beef with Jordan (as I have stated often) is that I feel that its time he finishes Wheel of Time. The rest of this stuff (prequels, planning other series, etc.) might well be side-tracking and delaying that.

Pat, I believe we can safely say that Tolkien "transcended" the fantasy genre, too, not just Rowling and Jordan.

And let's not forget Terry Goodkind. In his own words, he has revolutionized the genre. Just ask him. He'll be happy to tell you.

duchess of malfi wrote: My main beef with Jordan (as I have stated often) is that I feel that its time he finishes Wheel of Time. The rest of this stuff (prequels, planning other series, etc.) might well be side-tracking and delaying that.

Actually, I agree with you - I wish he'd hurry up and finish it.

But personally, I think committing to another series in the future is more likely to motivate him into getting WOT done, than distract him.

Prequels, I can generally live without.

I mean who does Jordan think he is!

Let's see...Tolkien, SRD, and now, apparently, Hearn.

My point being, and I don't think I'm alone in this, is that IMHO he's a talentless hack who's excelled at ripping off plot points, concepts, and characters from other writers.

pat5150 wrote:Love him or hate him, Robert Jordan is very good for fantasy because his series transcends the genre. Along with Rowling's Harry Potter, they are the only two author which have managed to do that. Which means that many other writers are benefiting from that.

Debatable. The big boom in fantasy began more than a decade before Jordan began The Wheel of Time. SRD attracted huge numbers of non-fantasy readers with TCTC; so did Terry Brooks. D&D introduced millions of (mostly) young readers to fantasy. Jordan appears to have saturated a particular demographic (fantasy-reading adolescents), but I'm not at all sure how much he's actually expanded the readership for other authors.

As far as signing for his new series at this moment rather than later, if you are aware of how negotiating contracts work, you should know that Tom Doherty at Tor Books probably was able to sign him down for less today, by agreeing to sign for the first three books of a future series.

I very much doubt that. Jordan is already getting advances of several million dollars per book, which is in the top range for any author. Typically, half of that advance is payable on signing, the other half on D&A. That means that Jordan is sitting on perhaps $5 million of Tor's money until he eventually gets around to writing the books. And remember, he has at least two more WOT books still under contract.

If I were a publisher, I don't think I would care to extend any author that much credit, that far in advance.

By acting thus, Doherty prevented the rights of the series to go to auction, where they would have attracted every publisher in North America, and which arguably would have become the most expensive rights ever sold in fantasy fiction history. So in the end, it is just good business done by a good businessman!

Such good business, in fact, that Tor is having to cut back on buying books by any other author, because they've gone way over budget. They're splitting other authors' books into smaller and smaller instalments to try to generate more revenue, and it's not doing anybody any good . . . but by golly, it's keeping Tor afloat until Jordan finishes the books they've already paid him for.

An author friend of mine refers to this situation at Tor as 'alimentary spasms'.

Actually, I don't see any danger that Jordan's new series would have gone to auction; or if it had, Tor would probably have gotten it cheaper. No other SF/fantasy publisher can afford to pay the kind of money Tor pays him, and only two or three houses are really in the market for his kind of monster books. (DAW is one, but they don't have Big Money behind them. Bantam and Del Rey count, but because they're both owned by Bertelsmann, they probably count as one. Certainly they're not going to have a bidding war between them; head office would intervene.)

What Jordan's fans obviously fear, and I think events so far give them cause, is that he will write these new books first, and the finale of WOT will be indefinitely postponed. That doesn't strike me as good business practice on any level.

Except that Jordan is almost finished with Book 11 or the 12 book series and it is due out this coming October. What is more any fans who are paying attention enough to know about the three book deal just inked also know that Jordan put the prequels on hold and said that unequivocally he would finish the series before doing anything else. I do realize that there are many who just don't listen, pay attention or perhaps like drama and will go around crying that their WoT sky is falling.

And everyone does have the right to an opinion. No one is questioning that. Certainly I am not. What others think about Jordan or other writers simply does not affect whether I like them or not. But I do find it rather interesting that a book that is not even written yet gets slammed for copying another writer. Very interesting. Nice inquisition feel to that attitude, there.

And when I spoke to Tom Doherty in Phoenix, I was interested to see his list of authors that they considered Jordan skirt riders. 29 of them to be exact. These are the authors that Tom considers published only due to the huge revenue that Jordan's book provided Tor. So it does work both ways. Tor has actually expanded its stable and shelf list due to the huge amount of money changing hands from WoT.

Oh well, there are obviously issues with Jordan so I will stop feeding the animals as it were. I just thought some of the woefully incorrect assumptions should be clarified and corrected. But go back to teh lynching! I heard that Jordan actually stole his pen name from both Robert E. Lee and Michael Jordan! That pathetic scoundrel!

gyrehead wrote: And when I spoke to Tom Doherty in Phoenix, I was interested to see his list of authors that they considered Jordan skirt riders. 29 of them to be exact. These are the authors that Tom considers published only due to the huge revenue that Jordan's book provided Tor. So it does work both ways. Tor has actually expanded its stable and shelf list due to the huge amount of money changing hands from WoT.

Perhaps some of these 29 skirt riders might even know how to finish a story.

Can we just move this to The Library and be done with it?
This is why I always go off about RJ forums

gyrehead wrote:And when I spoke to Tom Doherty in Phoenix, I was interested to see his list of authors that they considered Jordan skirt riders. 29 of them to be exact. These are the authors that Tom considers published only due to the huge revenue that Jordan's book provided Tor. So it does work both ways. Tor has actually expanded its stable and shelf list due to the huge amount of money changing hands from WoT.

That's very interesting to hear. Unfortunately (said I with some asperity, trying not to grind my teeth) it doesn't help those of us who are trying to deal with Tor now. 'Cos they have cut back their budgets and their buying, and are running with far too few staff for the work they have to do. I've been waiting for two and a half years for a definite response on a pair of manuscripts I sent there, and I'm one of the lucky ones. I know of one poor woman who's been awaiting a response since 2000, and another whose manuscript has been lost altogether.

(Two and a half years, by the way, is about how long it took SRD to accumulate all 47 rejections for Lord Foul's Bane. Truly, there were speed demons in those days!)

By the way, there's nothing to say that those 29 authors, or some of them, wouldn't have been published by someone else if it hadn't been for Jordan. Tor may have expanded their stable, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they caused the readership for fantasy to grow in proportion. At least some of their growth appears to have come at the expense of other publishers in the field.

<Groundhog Day>Robert Jordan must be stopped. And I must stop him.</Groundhog Day>

-jay