Kevin's Watch

So, when Elena offered herself to TC, was she a virgin or do you think that this was the act of an "experienced" woman?

The Landers seem to be, nate for life kind of people.
After TC raped Elena, I remember a passage about him taking something from her that The people of the Land regarded as a gift (or something like that) in reference to her Virginity--so I would guess that Virginity is not something just given away.

Indeed; they viewed it as a gift, and, plus, marriage was very important and highly valued in the Land--arguably much more so than in this world. Thus, since Elena wasn't married, I'd say it's a safe bet that she was indeed a virgin.

But, then again, her act did seem experienced--more forthright than reactionary. I would suggest that she got such confidence from miscellaneous past experiences, such as being a Lord, how she was raised, etc. Surely, she was definitely never a meek person.

Not to mention the fact that she was head-over heels for Covenant.

Hearthrall Tohrm "So, Lord Elena, did you want to go for a stroll, maybe to Glimmermere for a swim?"

Elena "Sorry Tohrm, you're not my type:

HT "What do you mean?"

HLE "Well, you have two fingers too many, not white gold Ring, and I'm not your offspring!!"

I think marriage was a very sacred thing in the Land, and virginity, as Covenant (and drew) suggest, considered a gift to be given.

It makes sense to me that Elena, with her totally screwed-up mindset about Covenant, would "save" herself for the man she's in love with. Because she is in love with Covenant, long before she ever meets him. She strikes me as the kind of woman who doesn't accept second-bests, and anyone else but Covenant would always be second-best to her. Never mind the fact that she's power-hungry, and if there's one thing Covenant is (besides grumpy, guilt-ridden, and stubborn), it's Powerful.

I'd like to think so.

Which reminds me; when I first read through the book, I read about her participation in the Ranhyn rites. Halfway through, I put the book down and mumbled, "please, please PLEASE, PLEASE don't say what I think you're gonna say, Elena."

Elena: One time at Ranhyn camp...

I think I have a bit of a... twisted mind. However, I wouldn't put anything past Donaldson, who based a major portion of Covenant's character on another act of violent sexual deviance. He's a good writer, and he handles it well, but I really wish that rape wasn't such an important factor in the series.

Myste wrote:I think marriage was a very sacred thing in the Land, and virginity, as Covenant (and drew) suggest, considered a gift to be given.

True, although gifts of love don't require marriage.

Myste wrote:It makes sense to me that Elena, with her totally screwed-up mindset about Covenant, would "save" herself for the man she's in love with. Because she is in love with Covenant, long before she ever meets him. She strikes me as the kind of woman who doesn't accept second-bests, and anyone else but Covenant would always be second-best to her. Never mind the fact that she's power-hungry, and if there's one thing Covenant is (besides grumpy, guilt-ridden, and stubborn), it's Powerful.

This I agree with totally though, and think it's probably a good assessment of that particular instance. I'm still voting "Doesn't matter", but I think Myste is on to something here.

--Avatar

Yes, to me she had never actually loved (or knew) Covenant as a man or a human being -- but she loved his power.

She was sneaking around with the Unfettered...

danlo wrote:She was sneaking around with the Unfettered...

Then you know she was not having sex with him. You remember the song...

Free
Unfettered
shriveled
Free

How can he use it all shriveled from those cold Glimmermere waters.

Seriously, though, I am in the "Doesn't Matter" category. In no way does it change the story.

...Consider, that her virginity is the result of her ilbalance. Perhaps a healthy exploration of her bodily functions mite have allowed her to see other possibilities?

A female can answer the question, The female natural urge to have sex is how easily put aside? That Elena was apparently able,,in of all places The Land, does that speak to Elenas unbalance? Devotion so harsh that it corrupts?

So, possibily , in that sense , it does matter. Sure, there is more manifestations of her unbalanced nature, but her virginity is a big clue.imho...MEL

lurch wrote:A female can answer the question, The female natural urge to have sex is how easily put aside? That Elena was apparently able,,in of all places The Land, does that speak to Elenas unbalance? Devotion so harsh that it corrupts?

So, possibily , in that sense , it does matter. Sure, there is more manifestations of her unbalanced nature, but her virginity is a big clue.imho...MEL

I don't want to start a really ugly argument, so I'll try to respond to this as temperately as I can--and I'll say right off the bat that maybe I've misread lurch's post, and this isn't what he meant at all.

Just in case I haven't misread anything, here's my response:

This is an unbelievably sexist answer. Do people actually believe this stuff any more? Shakespeare, in "Alls Well That Ends Well," calls female virginity "a wrinkled pear." Most of the "madwomen in the attic"--Mr. Rochester's wife in Jane Eyre, the speaker in Charlotte Perkins Gilman's "The Yellow Wallpaper," even Mrs. Danvers in Daphne DuMaurier's Rebecca all seem to indicate that virginity and/or female celibacy somehow lead to madness, or, as it was sometimes known, "female hysteria." This idea basically went out of style about 50 years ago.

Freud believed that sexual and creative energy came from the same source, and that sexual energy, if left dormant, was often turned into massive creative endeavors. He used Leonardo da Vinci as an example: according to Freud, da Vinci was gay, but since he never acted on his sexual impulses, he was able to sublimate that energy into his creative work--of which we have daily proof.

This particular theory of Freud's has been more or less debunked (there are Watchers who can speak to this more knowledgeably than I can). If it's not true for men, I simply don't see how it can be true for women. We're not that different. Celibate women are no more inclined to madness than celibate men are.

I'm not saying that my response to the original post is THE answer to the question, but I will say that Elena wasn't crazy because she was celibate. Her celibacy may have been one result of her madness, but not the other way around.

To balance this rant, I will say that I agree that Elena's devotion (read: love) to and for a Thomas Covenant she knew only through her mother--who certainly was mad--was in some way related to her imbalance. But any idea that her virginity somehow led to her madness is not only utterly ridiculous, but positively medieval.

I read lurch's post more in terms that if Elena saved her virginity for forty years for a man that she had never even met might be an indication that she wasn't emotionally healthy.

The fact that she perhaps had never explored sexual and romantic feelings with anyone else because she considered herself in love with Covenant (a man she had never met, and her biological father, not to mention her mother's rapist) is...well, not exactly normal.

Myste wrote:Freud believed that sexual and creative energy came from the same source, and that sexual energy, if left dormant, was often turned into massive creative endeavors.

Actually, I find that those massive creative endeavours often come about because the men in question are trying not to leave their sexual energy dormant. You wouldn't believe how many men take up various creative arts just to get laid. There was once a man who became an artist for some other reason, but he escaped before they could stuff him and mount him and put him on display in the British Museum.

In [i]Out of the Silent Planet[/i], C.S. Lewis wrote:'With us [gold] lies very deep and hard to get and those who dig it must spend their whole lives on the skill.'

'And they love it?'

'I think not . . . I do not know. They are kept at it because they are given no food if they stop.'

Kanakaberaka wrinkled his nose. 'Then there is not food in plenty on your world?'

'I do not know,' said Ransom. 'I have often wished to know the answer to that question but no one can tell me. Does no one keep your people at their work, Kanakaberaka?'

'Our females,' said the pfifltrigg with a piping noise which was apparently his equivalent for a laugh.

Same phenomenon, simpler economy.

For the rest, I believe I agree with Duchess.

Variol Farseer wrote:You wouldn't believe how many men take up various creative arts just to get laid. There was once a man who became an artist for some other reason, but he escaped before they could stuff him and mount him and put him on display in the British Museum.

That is so funny, it must be true.

Hey lurch, I think I may have misread your post. Sorry!

I think he might have also been suggesting the possibility that repressing ones sexual impulses has some kind of mental backlash.

Of course, I might be wrong. And when he said 'females' specifically, I think he was indicating that as a male, he wouldn't know. Guys don't have much direct internal experience with the female sex drive. I think he would have said the same thing about a male, but with more authority.

Yeah, How many Rock stars and Rap stars, and especially Boy-Band singers are acctually in it for the music?

JemCheeta wrote:I think he would have said the same thing about a male, but with more authority.

I think you're probably right, JC. I guess the singling out of "females" just bugged me.

The Cosmic Trilogy have always been my favourite of Lewis' books.

--A

..Okay, apology understood but unecessary. Myste, what I say is of little importance, its what said afterwards that keeps the ball rolling, or volley continued.

yea, you got it kind of reverse of what was said. The mental imbalance resulted in her virgin state, not the other way around. And no, i make no reference at all to the male side of the question , because, the character in question is female. But my initial question remains unanswered.

I can speak of the male drive, from initial spark of awareness thru the gathering teens and young adulthood and well into the mature middle age. Its quite an impressive machine that I'd say isn't very good on the economic consumption rate. Or more plainly..its extravagant in its costs. Kinda like a ( oh, i'm sorry,,Warning!, Yet Another Meta-Phor!) British Sports car, lots of fun to drive but demands constant attention and maintenance. Or put it another way, somewhere i heard that the average male has a sexual orientated thought every 10 to 20 seconds..Ones personal truth to that isn't the issue,,but the consideration of how much time is consumed on the sexual thought is. Again, the cost is staggering in its inefficiency.

If the female drive is close to that of the male, then consider the character Elena 's time and energy focused,,on one Tom C,,as pointed out by others, someone having never met, AND, her father! It was all mad waste. Again, I'm saying her virginal state was a manifestation of her insanity. TC should have wondered rite up front,,why wasn't his daughter engaged, or married or even dating. He was too easily put aside by Elena on those issues as I recall...MEL