Kevin's Watch

What to make with the Ramen? Just what do they represent in the figurative landscape? One can’t think of the Ramen without the Ranyhyn included. So, in that, maybe is their metaphor. SRD always reminds us of their sole purpose: Their total commitment to servitude to the Ranyhyn. Perhaps the Ramen are personification of “ sacrifice”?

… For me, the word , “ sacrifice” is one of those words, that one can easily grasp the understanding at a superficial level, as in a sacrifice fly ball in baseball, but when applied to the personal, the word becomes defined by the specific event and circumstances. The depth of the meaning is specific to the personal situation. The Ramen appear to have no problem in ultimate sacrifice for the Ranyhyn. A quick note to that is made on observation of Hami’s cool dealing with her dead. They live an austere existence for the Ranyhyn. They forgo much in their exacting service.

They are not easy for me. Again , it has to do with the specific. Just what would I be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for? They are prepared to sacrifice for the Ranyhyn. So, what does that make the Ranyhyn? Pureness? Purity? The Ramen do not presume anything on to the Ranyhyn. So Pure are the Ranyhyn in the Ramen perception, that the Ramen subjugate their own individuality to them. They exist like a Army-. discipline thru-out the ranks with defined hierarchy. What army doesn’t require the individual to be sacrificed for the survival of the whole? Yes, quite the combative mentality.

The other side of the same coin is the gesture extended to Linden for saving the life of one of the Ramen; more extreme servitude, ready to sacrifice. Heck,even gave Esmer back flush.! So,maybe the Ramen are more than a flyball sacrifice. They are dead Serious Sacrifice ? or maybe just dead serious? They don’t exhibit a lighter side do they?

Are they flawed? Is there a fly in the soup? Perhaps, its in their perception of the Ranyhyn and that they try to match Their Perception with Their Service. If their perception is over the top, then their attitude, of anything accepted by the Ranyhyn, is okay by them, becomes a certain release of responsibility. They could be more balanced, but if they were, they wouldn’t be Ramen..It wouldn’t hurt them tho, would it? I mean, sacrifice can be corrupted.

And, again,if the Ramen are being discussed, you can’t do so without the mention of the Ranyhyn and now with Runes, theres that pesky bugger Esmer in the middle of it.I like that I don’t like the Ramen all that much. They keep me on edge and that’s good. But, what kind of change Esmer subjects them to could be serious trouble for them, and yes, I’m not sure I could stand the sacrifice..I guess the real question becomes, what part of sacrifice is held by despair?…MEL

I'd just like to say that if Ramen is the soup of the day, I'll have the salad.


P.S. The extra line between paragraphs makes your posts SO much easier to read. Thank you!

just as an aside..

Didn't Joan breed horses??

lurch wrote:What to make with the Ramen? Just what do they represent in the figurative landscape? One can’t think of the Ramen without the Ranyhyn included. So, in that, maybe is their metaphor. SRD always reminds us of their sole purpose: Their total commitment to servitude to the Ranyhyn. Perhaps the Ramen are personification of “ sacrifice”?

To understand the Ramen, and the figuritive representation of them, one must understand Power as SRD sees it. Power is a useful tool, and when used wisely can be the means to a positive end. But SRD has told us time and again that Power itself is never enough. The true power resides in the individual. Given that, the Ramen are the ultimate power of the Land. They have taken no Vow, they subscribe to no lore. Yet have survived in Foul's shadow for centuries. That is power.

It's the kind of Power that cannot be corrupted. They swore no Vow that Foul could taint. They use no lore that falsely strengthens them. They use no White Gold that the Despiser can venomize. They are the true power.

Sacrifice? Perhaps. But not to the Ramen. They lose nothing in their service. They sacrifice nothing. They have found a way to serve the Land at virtually no cost to themselves, and have found a true love in the process. They wholeheartedly live for the Ranyhyn and perform their service on the strength of self. The only aid they permit themselves is a cord. The Ramen figuratively represent the true Power of the Land.

lurch wrote: … The depth of the meaning is specific to the personal situation. The Ramen appear to have no problem in ultimate sacrifice for the Ranyhyn. A quick note to that is made on observation of Hami’s cool dealing with her dead. They live an austere existence for the Ranyhyn. They forgo much in their exacting service.

True, they are willing to perform the "ultimate sacrifice" for the Ranyhyn. Would you die for Him?
But that just adds the power of love to their power of service. In my eyes, it strengthens them.

lurch wrote: They are not easy for me. Again , it has to do with the specific. Just what would I be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for? They are prepared to sacrifice for the Ranyhyn. So, what does that make the Ranyhyn? Pureness? Purity? The Ramen do not presume anything on to the Ranyhyn. So Pure are the Ranyhyn in the Ramen perception, that the Ramen subjugate their own individuality to them. They exist like a Army-. discipline thru-out the ranks with defined hierarchy. What army doesn’t require the individual to be sacrificed for the survival of the whole? Yes, quite the combative mentality.

I see this as a strength, not a flaw. Using your Army analogy, how many times have read about dissention among the Ramen ranks? None. Of course the individual is less important than the cause. Again, in this situation I see strength in that. All personal agendas are put aside (a sacrifice yes, but one entered into willingly). There is no "I" or "me" to weaken their position. They live for each other as much as for the Ranyhyn. And they are successful.

lurch wrote: ...So,maybe the Ramen are more than a flyball sacrifice. They are dead Serious Sacrifice ? or maybe just dead serious? They don’t exhibit a lighter side do they?

I agree completely here. They are serious. It is a necessity for them. And yet, besides the willingness to die for the Ranyhyn, which is a complete sacrifice of self, what are they really "sacrificing"?

lurch wrote: Are they flawed? Is there a fly in the soup? Perhaps, its in their perception of the Ranyhyn and that they try to match Their Perception with Their Service. If their perception is over the top, then their attitude, of anything accepted by the Ranyhyn, is okay by them, becomes a certain release of responsibility. They could be more balanced, but if they were, they wouldn’t be Ramen..It wouldn’t hurt them tho, would it? I mean, sacrifice can be corrupted.

I seem to recall that any service that uses the Earthpower has been corrupted. The Haruchai Vow, the Lords themselves (several times, I might add.) Even the Elohim have a "blackness" in their hearts. The Earthpower was tainted by the Sunbane.
Earthpower never was, and never will be the answer. The Ramen have sworn no such Vow, and they serve the Ranyhyn, beings of Earthpower, without using the Earthpower itself. They cannot be corrupted by Foul the way the Lords and Haruchai were. Blinded by service, yes. Pietten is an example of that. But flawed? No.

lurch wrote: ...I guess the real question becomes, what part of sacrifice is held by despair?…MEL

[/quote]

I do not link the Ramen with despair. Sorrow, yes. But despair? No. Their sacrifice is not born of desperation, but of love. Their service is true. Their path unfaltering. This is not despair. This is ultimate Power in the Land. They have stood the test of time, with nothing given back to them by those they serve except the knowledge of their service. This is ultimate Power in the Land. The power of self. The power that enables one to rely on oneself, and not have hopes begotten of false promises from inadequate sources.

(looks troubled)

Ur-Bane, that is an excellent explanation, and it may be absolutely right. But I find a flaw in it, and (apologetic look) I'd like to point the flaw out (or, maybe, it isn't a flaw, but an unremarked on extension of your thinking.)

I see a tribal society that once existed, prior to the time of Kevin, prior to their discovery of the Raynhim and the onslaught of Lord Foul against the Great Horses.
In this tribal society, there was a limited amount of specialization. The entire able bodied adult population hunted or gathered (gender made no difference.) The very young were tended by the elderly. A few specialists understood the creation of primitive permanent structures, along with primitive medicine, primitive weapons, and other basics of tribal societies such as might have existed in ice age Europe.
Then they discovered the Raynhim.

The society may have had a tribal religion, but they dropped it, and they took up - in their entirety - the Religion of the Raynhim. The Raynhim became as deities before them, and their entire lives became like a Religious Service to these deities. And this happened just in time to save the Great Horses from extinction at the hands of Lord Foul, since Kevin and the Old Lords had apparently lost - by that time - their ability to defend the Plains of Ra.
In this religion, the entirety of the Ramen - that is, all the disparate tribes of the Ramen, if such was the case - were unified under this singular religion. And their disparate ways of survival and disparate cultures were united under this religion. Whatever weapons they had used, were discarded in favor of a weapon which became their singular weapon and holy symbol combined: the garrote.
They committed all their able bodied men and women to their religion, and very few indeed refused the calling of that religion. Thus, the creation of the Manethralls, Cords, and those in training for their Cording. Meanwhile, the elderly continued to tend to the young, and the Winhomes and other social classes were created.
United by their religion, their reverence for the Ranyhim as deities, and aided by the Earthpower of the Land in the form of amanibhavam, alianthia, hurtloam, and health sight, the Ramen saved the Rahyhim from extinction, and the two sentient races, mankind and horsekind, were welded into a single people.
That's my take on the more mundane aspects of the Ramen. Obviously, there is nothing mundane about the Ranyhim, who are a kind of personified Earthpower and have very great (magical) abilities.

However, here is the flaw (or, perhaps, lack of expanding on your point) that I see:

The Ramen themselves wield magical powers. Or, in this case, they have abilities that transcend that of normal people, like the Haruchai do, and it would appear Earthpower is the cause (appear, I say, because they have these abilities outside the Land as well.)
Manethrall Mairtiir said that Service Enables Service. I must wonder if Service - the religion of the Ramen - indeed grants them superhuman abilities?

Minor transcendant Ramen abilities:

- The Cords and Manethralls can move through high grass without disturbing it, without leaving a trail, and without making any noise.
- The Cords and Manethralls can hide in any sort of terrain. They can hide so well even the Haruchai cannot see them (and that's saying something.)
- The Cords and Manethralls can attack by surprise, catching even the Haruchai off guard (again, that's saying something.)
- The Cords and Manethralls can unerringly find their way back to the surface from underground.
- The Cords and Manethralls can nurse injured horses back to health with superhuman speed.
- The Cords and Manethralls are the best trackers in the Land, exceeding even the Haruchai.

Major transcendant Ramen abilities:

- The Cords and Manethralls have superhuman reflexes, agility, and fighting prowess. They are the finest acrobats in the Land (they put the finest acrobats in the Real World to shame.) This has been proven again and again. They are not the match of the Haruchai in one on one combat: if the Haruchai are the martial artists, the Ramen are the assassins.
- The Cords and Manethralls can move through any terrain, in a combat situation, without being seen, heard, or smelled, even by the Haruchai, much less their foes (typically, the Kresh.)
- The Cords can move at preternatural speed when they decide to. The Manethralls can move at the speed of a galloping Raynhim for at least several minutes (that's over 40 miles per hour, I'm guessing. The current world record on the 50 yard dash is 21 miles per hour.)
- The Cords and Manethralls both have preternatural toughness and endurance that cannot be explained by the hard lives they live.

I watched twenty lads and lasses (that is, men and women near or under the age of twenty) rise up amongst a charging horde of many hundreds of Kresh, any one of which could down a full grown man in our Real World (even if the man had a firearm, I'd give that singular Kresh a good chance at winning.)
Those twenty Ramen killed at least a hundred of the Kresh, and apparently they killed far more than a hundred (of course, the Ur-Viles and Stave killed many Kresh as well, but not until after the Ramen wreaked their initial slaughter.)
In return, I remember that four of the Ramen were killed, and a fifth was mortally wounded, by later saved by Lindens' actions. The others suffered wounds which they shrugged off.

Not bad, for people without swords, bows, armor, or any of the tactics of modern warfare! And not bad, for teenaged boys and girls, some as young as fourteen (yes, I realize teenagers fought wars in medieval times, but those were BIG wolves, those Kresh.)
If the Warward of the Lords could do half as well, they need not have worried about being outnumbered twenty to one by Fleshharrowers' army (and, I would note, the Ramen and Ranyhim defeated Fleshharrowers' minions sent to invade the Plains of Ra. They held out against Satanshearts' reinforcing attack until Covenant stopped Lord Foul.)
I see the working of Earthpower, or some other strong magic, in this.

Not even Elenas' winter could defeat the Ramen. They did not even deign to don winter apparel (they couldn't make winter apparel, but that is aside from the point.) Normal people, and even normal trees and vegetation, perished in the cold, but the Ramen endured wearing only summertime clothing.
Again, not bad. Again, I see Earthpower or some other strong magic in this.

So yes, there seems to me to be an Earthpower or other magical component to the Ramen service. And Mairtiir did state that Service Enabled Service in Runes of the Earth, which reinforces my belief.
I am guessing from this that the simple decision to serve the Raynhim, by the ancient Ramen during Kevins' time, invoked the Earthpower and enhanced the stature of the Ramen, and that this remains the situation to this day, whether the Ramen and Raynhim are in the Land or not in the Land.

How would you fit this analysis - if you give this analysis full probability and credit - to your analogy above, Ur-Bane?
How would you add it to your analysis, to present a complete picture of the Ramen?

I am very interested in what you have to say. For the Ramen have always fascinated me, ever since I first encountered them in Lord Fouls' Bane. They are an inspiring and noble people verily, to use Donaldsons' words. They are not 'advanced' as we think of it, but they put 'advanced' people to shame in a lot of ways, including their ability to survive Lord Foul where the 'advanced' people can not. (And I'm talking, not just about the New Lords and their enfeebled lore, but mighty Kevin and his vast armies.)

avial wrote:just as an aside..

Didn't Joan breed horses??

She trained them. LFB makes her sound like a horse whisperer.

lurch wrote:They are not easy for me. Again , it has to do with the specific. Just what would I be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for? They are prepared to sacrifice for the Ranyhyn. So, what does that make the Ranyhyn? Pureness? Purity? The Ramen do not presume anything on to the Ranyhyn. So Pure are the Ranyhyn in the Ramen perception, that the Ramen subjugate their own individuality to them.

I think there are two issues. The first is service. Like our samurai. In one way, the thing being served is irrelevant. The point is the purity of the service. And in this way, the Ramen out-did the Bloodguard.

"By hell, if you're only doing this out of pride, I hope you rot for it. You could have taken them south into the mountains - you could have saved them from this. Pride isn't a good enough excuse."

Again the ghoul-begotten hurt darkened Kam's gaze. "It is not pride," he said softly. "They Ranyhyn do not choose to go."

The Bloodguard certainly tried. If their intention had not been absolute, the Earthpower wouldn't have responded to the Vow in the first place. But they lost sight of things. A trend the Haruchai took even farther, becoming the Masters. The Bloodguard changed things, deciding to serve others on their own terms.

The Ramen knew better. When you serve, you don't demand. They always served on the Ranyhyns' terms. The Ramen never tried to tell the Ranyhyn what to do or where to go. They never tried to hide things from the Ranyhyn, thinking it was "for their own good." The Ramen serve in whatever ways the Ranyhyn permit them to serve.

And there's a certain freedom in such service. The Ramen are free from one type of worry. The Ramen don't regret having made the wrong choices, because they aren't the ones making choices.

The second issue is the thing served. IMO, nothing could be more worthy of service than the Ranyhyn. In the opinion of the Ramen, nothing else could come close to being as worthy. And remember Bannor's words?

"Without Vows or defiance of death, they surpassed the faith of the Bloodguard."

I agree. And in my opinion:

The Ramen cared about the Ranyhim.
The Bloodguard did not care about Revelstone and it's people.

When the Raynhim were suffering during the First Chronicles, the Ramen were in tears over their plight. The Ramen were fighting to the end for the Raynhim (a reaction somewhat similar to everyones' reaction when the Sunbane broke into Andelain, in the Second Chronicles.)
When Revelstone was in it's darkest hour, in The Power that Preserves, I do not recall any of the former Bloodguard talking about caring or remorse (except remorse their Vow had been corrupted) or helping the Lords simply because the Lords were worthy of being helped.

I think they thought that the bloodguard were not sufficient for the need.

Thanks guys some good thoughts and good reading.

I see a number of things embodied in the Ramen, an austerity and loyalty reminiscent of Samurai, a love and devotion reminiscent of clergy (nuns, monks etc. from a variety of religions) and Plainsmen (Red Indians, Masai, Cosacks etc.).

The life they lead is not dissimilar to Mongolians plainsmen who live with their cattle, the life of each entwined with the other, or the Plains Indians with the buffalo. Granted they do not kill and eat Ranyhyn but their life is intrinsically governed by the movement of their animals. The children are brought up knowing no difference and accept the life.

Add to this the devotion to something amazing and beautiful as often exemplified by nuns or monks; Christian, Buddhist or otherwise, add in the unswerving loyalty of the Samurai who's service is pure to the point of death and we have the Ramen.

It also occurred to me that perhaps there may be a parallell with the Fremen of Dune (a la the Shadout Mapes and The Mahdoubt). The Fremen possess a number of the qualities (apart from the name), similar to the Ramen.

The source of their power raised an interesting thread. The Ramen, the Fremen, the Harachai; all have this enhanced/advanced physical prowess. SRD is also a martial artist and will have heard stories of the prowess of Martial artists of old, many of which seems supernatural, despite much documentation and evidence!

Of course they were tough, they'd be brought up on the run, aspiring to run with the great Horses and keep up with the grown ups (better aspirations than smoking or drinking to appear older). They'd probably get the girl (or the boy) depending on their status within their group which would be determined by their speed, agility, etc...so well motivated. They were focussed by their lifestyle, there was little distraction. No telly, no Gameboy, no internet.

Also the Ramen do use Hurtloam, Aliantha and get strength from the plants they add to their stews etc.

Edelaith, you make some good points concerning the Ramen.
Now it is my turn to apologise, for I can see natural reasons for their abilities. Earthpower need not be linked to them.

Edelaith wrote:Minor transcendant Ramen abilities:

- The Cords and Manethralls can move through high grass without disturbing it, without leaving a trail, and without making any noise.
- The Cords and Manethralls can hide in any sort of terrain. They can hide so well even the Haruchai cannot see them (and that's saying something.)
- The Cords and Manethralls can attack by surprise, catching even the Haruchai off guard (again, that's saying something.)
- The Cords and Manethralls can unerringly find their way back to the surface from underground.
- The Cords and Manethralls can nurse injured horses back to health with superhuman speed.
- The Cords and Manethralls are the best trackers in the Land, exceeding even the Haruchai.

Major transcendant Ramen abilities:

- The Cords and Manethralls have superhuman reflexes, agility, and fighting prowess. They are the finest acrobats in the Land (they put the finest acrobats in the Real World to shame.) This has been proven again and again. They are not the match of the Haruchai in one on one combat: if the Haruchai are the martial artists, the Ramen are the assassins.
- The Cords and Manethralls can move through any terrain, in a combat situation, without being seen, heard, or smelled, even by the Haruchai, much less their foes (typically, the Kresh.)
- The Cords can move at preternatural speed when they decide to. The Manethralls can move at the speed of a galloping Raynhim for at least several minutes (that's over 40 miles per hour, I'm guessing. The current world record on the 50 yard dash is 21 miles per hour.)
- The Cords and Manethralls both have preternatural toughness and endurance that cannot be explained by the hard lives they live.

The Ramen have lived their lives in their entirety on the Plains of Ra, serving the Rhanyhn. Their skills are passed on from generation to generation, and the learning begins at an early age.

Their service requires these abilities, requires stealth and prowess. But these are simply skills learned and practiced. Their physical abilities have also been forged through generations of service. Obviously, we cannot definitively rule out Earthpower, since the Ranyhyn themselves are beings of Earthpower, and may have indeed given back to the Ramen by way of physical ability. But I find that unlikely.

As Fist stated, the Ramen swore now Vow. Their ability was the direct result of generations of service, honing their skills. Certainly there is strength in their gene pool. ANd I don;t really think it is fair to compare the Ramen with anyone from "our" world or the "real" world. The worlds operate with different sets of rules. Certainly a world that can produce Giants can produce men and women that can run with the Ranyhyn.

Agreed. My mistake. You make a good point, Ur-Bane.
I made a common error: trying to compare humankind in fantasy settings to humankind in the real world. Such comparisons just don't work.
It doesn't even work to compare modern people with the people of antiquity.

In any case, the Ramen are a neat people. They're not perfect ... thank the fates.
I'll never forget the day I read the page where Cord Grace and the other Cords slew the 15 Kresh. If first impressions are the strongest, then that was a good first impression.

duchess of malfi wrote:

avial wrote:just as an aside..

Didn't Joan breed horses??

She trained them. LFB makes her sound like a horse whisperer.

More to the point, she broke them.

She, Joan Macht Covenant, was a quiet woman who expressed more of herself with her eyes and the tone of her skin than she did with words. Her flesh had a hue of gold which made her look as warm and precious as a sylph or succuba of joy. But she was not large or strong, and Thomas Covenant felt constantly amazed at the fact that she earned a living for them by breaking horses.
The term breaking, however, did not do justice to her skill with animals. There were no tests of strength in her work, no bucking stallions with mad eyes and foaming nostrils. It seemed to Covenant that she did not break horses; she seduced them. Her touch spread calm over their twitching muscles. Her murmuring voice relaxed the tension in the angle of their ears. When she mounted them bareback, the grip of her legs made the violence of their brute fear fade. And whenever a horse burst from her control, she simply slid from its back and left it alone until the spasm of its wildness had worn away. Then she began with the animal again. In the end, she took it on a furious gallop around Haven Farm, to show the horse that it could exert itself to the limit without surpassing her mastery.

I always figured this was a key theme in regards to Covenant and his fear of horses (not to mention his vertigo). Afraid of power and unbridled heights of emotion, yet drawn to women that embrace both?

Hmmmm...did you ever really pay attention to Joan's middle name before?
Macht pronounced "mocked": Joan mocked Covenant.
Sounds kind of like what she is doing in Runes, no?

There's a Tolkien connection here, also. One of his first jobs in the army was to break horses for other officers.

Another thing I would compliment the Ramen on are their bravery.
I saw 20 youths, lads and lasses, rise up to give battle to hundreds of Kresh, any one of which could have taken down a full grown man in our real world.
They lost 5 of their number, and killed over a hundred of the Kresh.
It was bravery, and not foolhardiness, this act. Why? Because these Cords were under the direct orders of their Manethrall to give battle to the attacking Kresh hoard. These youths and maids, brave ... and loyal, moved immediately to the task at hand.

The Lords should have sent the Warward to learn combat techniques under the tutelage of the Manethralls and Cords, assuming the Ramen would teach them.
I think a combined force of Lords, Warward soldiers, Haruchai, Ramen, Raynhim, Waynhim, and Giants, working as a team, would have been an almost unbeatable combination.

As for Gameboys ... (chuckles) ... I don't think the Ramen would have gone for those. The Ramen youths and maids (or any of the rest of them) didn't exactly have a lot of free time on their hands.
Television sets would have lasted until the first showing of programs depicting the breaking of horses or the suffering of horses, after which the television sets would have been unceremoniously pushed off Landsdrop.

..yes, I agree,, the first viewing of Mr. Ed would have been the last...Truelly an insult to both man and beast...MEL

LOL. And true.