Pope Benedict XVI

[lurch]

...Thanks DWood for your explanation on how it is that observations of a Pope or either black or white.

...I do not agree on the foundation. To me, the Pope is just another human being with feet of clay. At best he can be seen as a elected CEO of the Catholic Corporation, elected by a board of directors known as the Cardinal Conclave.

...I acknowledge that he is the product of Power and Politics. Again, just another human being. I grant him no special powers or abilities and therefore , because the position is a Pulpit, I also am entitiled to voice my observations of what the Position puts forth in terms of what and how the World should behave and believe in.

Historical Fact on the immediate subject and the larger time scale of the Position is exactly that, historical fact. What I DO have Faith in does not allow me to ignore or make excuses for ,in the historical fact. What i DO have Faith in does not allow me to place any human being above failure, or having it wrong, including myself. The other side of that is,,facts are facts.

Fact is, you have somehow observed that I placed humor with nazi's and slammed latinos. The only truthfulness in that fact is that its Your observation. Your abilty to twist what is being said or is it just plain old misunderstanding,,is well demonstrated. A member of Hitler Youth is a member of Hitler Youth. A illegal immigrant is a illegal immigrant. Any more than that is Your addition not mine, except to say, that by your additions, you prove the point I make. No body is super or above ,,and when a group chooses a leader who is supposed to be special and above, they better make sure or consider the consequences if they don't, that the man they elect , has very clean feet. Because those outside of the belief system Will Have a Field Day With His Feet of Clay. This has nothing to do with Faith. This has everything to do with the Real World. It applys to the Corporate World as well....

From my perspective,,any body who says that they sat next to
a man who died 2000 years ago,,better be talking about a mummy,or hes just telling one of those Texas Tall Tales. But neither, gives him the Right to call me a liar if I don't agree with his story....MEL

[Plissken]

Jesus was a 1st century terrorist trying to overthrow the Romans.

You know - I've never thought about it this way - but you're absolutely correct! I mean, just look at all the bombings, beheadings, abductions, and hijackings that Jesus was responsible for.

Terrorist is strong terminology, especially in these times.

However, a reading of the Gospels (especially the ones written by those who preceded Paul) reveals a man who was quite in line with the old Jewish Messianic beliefs.

While it's pretty clear that he thought that Jehovah would be instrumental in Rome's overthrow, his promise to tear down and rebuild Herod's temple, as well as his opposition to the Rome-toadying Sadducees (sp?), make it pretty clear that his "Kingdom of Heaven" was right in line with the Pharisidic beliefs on the subject - and to fufill those beliefs, there would have to be a Jewish revolt.

In short, while Paul and the other writer of Acts may have had it otherwise, Jesus was looking for Jewish Kingdom on Earth. He was a rabble-rouser. (And, given the fact that there's a fine line between Freedom Fighter and Terrorist - whatever the tactics - the would-be leader of an out-manned, out-gunned rebellion would've certainly been considered a terrorist by the Imperialist oppressors.)

[dlbpharmd]

Of course, one could realize that when talking about tearing down the Temple and rebuilding it in 3 days, Jesus was talking about his coming death, burial and resurrection. And he did say "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's." Not hardly the words of a rebel.

[Kinslaughterer]

He also says, "bring a sword and he who does not have one should sell his clothes and buy one" (paraphrasing)
Then "we should be as innocent as doves but as clever as serpents"
His disciples include Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot. Two men who are connected to the Zealots, a guerilla force fighting the Romans, while Iscariot is better translated as sicarii or the dagger.
Jesus is captured by a "cohort" of Roman soldiers. A cohort of Roman soldiers is half a legion being between 600 and 1000 men!
Just a few notable points

[Furls Fire]

Just for the record...I find you calling Jesus a "terrorist" quite offensive. I don't usually say anything when I find posts to be an offense to my faith, because I believe that all people have their own personal right to their opinions. But, I speak out now. To call my Lord and Saviour a "terrorist" is very very very offensive to me.

[dennisrwood]

kin: blanket denial? Ratzinger pretty well defined what he did during the war, sorry it doesn't fit your preconception. as to slaughter, I will see your Church and raise you Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Baby Doc, Papa Doc, Castro, Hirihito, Il Duce...and I find it liberating to surrender myself to my creator thank you. and you refuse to see what the Church has done for the betterment of mankind, I can't force you to see the truth. seems that the Church tried that with folks, didn't work. and Jesus as terrorist? I missed that in my bible, who did He kill? who did He supress? who did He terrorize? if it's a joke, it's not funny. and if you believe it, it betrays an ignorance of what terrorism is.

Tolkien: except Jesus setting up His church, and telling us what to do, you have it right.

Warmark: I find secularism a disease. you can see the symptoms in this world.

Lurch: yes I see it all in black and white. moral relativism must have been disproven by now? and it's not up to you to bestow anything on the pope, Jesus did that thank you. and nice way to coward away from your attacks. place the link there and retreat in terror when someone sees what you have inferred. your too smart to not have meant it. at least own it. I'll call you out on that. and just because your narrow scope hasn't seen proof doesn't mean that I haven't experienced what I have witnessed to. make it personal enough for you? try more double talk, at least I'll own what I say.

Plissken: terrorist kill. freedom fighters sometimes kill. Jesus healed, He taught, He died...

kin: Judas was there to betray Him. we all play our parts.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Tolkien: except Jesus setting up His church, and telling us what to do, you have it right.

See, blonde cheerleader porn unites us all!!!

[Avatar]

Whoa, OK folks. Lets take it a bit easier here with the mud-slinging. It's perfectly possible to disagree completely without being insulting. And I'm sure there's no need to worry about the thread being locked, on the whole we try to avoid that. In fact, I don't think that there is one locked thread in either the Close, or in the Think-Tank.

As Plissken said, in these times, "terrorist" is an awfully strong word, and as his post makes clear, he, and Kin as well, I'm sure, didn't intend it in the sense that Dlb, and probably Furls, took it. Maybe "freedom fighter" is a better way of putting it, in the same sense that Ghandi was a freedom fighter.

In terms of his "render unto Ceaser...", I'd guess that since the first change he wanted to make was in the Jewish community, he wasn't intent on agitating the Romans against himself at that point. (Although, with only the Gospel to go on, we probably only have half the story.) Not to mention that Plissken was only saying that the Romans may have seen him as such.

As you all know, I pretty much agree with Kins take on christianity, hell I think that it applies equally to all organised religions. Thats why they're organised.

That said, there's no reason that this debate can't be maintained in a civil manner. A sly dig is not necessary to enhance anyone's point or question. In fact, it detracts from the point in the first place, leads attention away from it.

If we're gonna play, lets play nice. It doesn't mean you agree, or concede, but getting worked up, and doing the same to others, intentionally or not, is what starts Jihads in the first place.

--Avatar

[Plissken]

Of course, one could realize that when talking about tearing down the Temple and rebuilding it in 3 days, Jesus was talking about his coming death, burial and resurrection. And he did say "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's." Not hardly the words of a rebel.

"Render unto Ceasar" was added after Acts was written, which was about 100+ years after Christ' life/death.

As for the Temple quote, Jesus wasn't even the first "messiah" to make that claim - it was pretty much the same claim made by every jewish nationalist with a messianic complex before and after Jesus' time. Hell, you can find minor prophets in the OT that made the same claim.

I have to think that, if he really meant something different than all the other messianic pretenders, he would've said something different than what all the others were saying.

It's an Occam's Razor thing.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

Getting into this late, but I have to ask... who the hell is Carl? Do you mean Karol Wojtyla? He was in a completely different situation than Ratzinger. Ratzinger lived in the occupying country, as a forced member of the "Master Race." Wojtyla lived in an occupied state, as a member of a people the Germans wanted to wipe out. The difference is so dramatic that I see no comparison. They each did the best they could in their own situations, and Ratzinger's deserting speaks to his moral convictions. Desertion during war was as much of a death sentence for him as reciting Pan Tadeusz was for Wojtyla.

I resent secularism being called a disease. The problems faced by the world's governments can't be solved by making every country a theocracy, or by (in the US) doing away with the separation of church and state. I know plenty of so-called religious people who act with fear, hatred, blindness and greed whenever it suits them, never mind the Catholic Church's thousand-year history of essentially being a government, and all the problems that caused. The answer is not love of a deity, but love of and compassion for everyone. Organized religion excludes people by its very nature.

I'm not trying to attack the Catholic Church, or any other. I only believe that morality is above organized religion. One shouldn't need a fear of divine reprisal or a promise of salvation to induce him to help others. I'm happy that your Lord loves you, dennis. I see that he has made your life worthwhile - but he is not my Lord. Please don't force him, or any other, on those who do not need or want him.

[Avatar]

I know plenty of so-called religious people who act with fear, hatred, blindness and greed whenever it suits them...The answer is not love of a deity, but love of and compassion for everyone.

Well said Alynna. Damn well.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

I'm clearly not an authority on these things, but I thought "Render unto Caesar..." was Jesus' way of saying, "Money is Caesar's shtick, not God's. Go ahead and give as much as you want to Caesar. It's his. But give God what's His."

[Kinslaughterer]

I guess the difference is finding out for yourself vs. taking someone else's word for it...

I stand by my statement, it wasn't meant to be funny. A couple of thousand years of propaganda still doesn't "correct" all the quotes from the past. As Plissken and I both pointed out in above posts.

Judas was told to betray Jesus. His prophecy was an order from the boss. The whole 30 shekels was added long after the fact.

[Warmark Jay]

Warmark: I find secularism a disease. you can see the symptoms in this world.

Ah. Like I said in my other post, it's an unwinnable argument when one's trump card is "God is on my side". So to your point: I'll continue to live a good life (show kindness to strangers, love my wife and kid, be honest, not kill or main anyone, etc.). Must be symptomatic of my secular condition.

I only believe that morality is above organized religion.

Word. Or amen, if you like.

[lurch]

Thank You Very Much Dwood. Fascinating exhibition you provide.

So I’m up to a Coward now. Okay, a liar, a racist, and now a coward. Oh my. Again, a fascinating peek into the world seen in Black and White. What else you got? There is so much more , why stop there? What does one such as yourself call a person who does not want or require or accept for his belief system that of anothers? And not only that,,but objects and criticizes when others belief systems is crammed into his existence?

I see the Mormons have converted your long passed away great grand parents to The Church of Latter Day Saints. Well, to be fair,,they are busy converting everybody’s deceased relatives to The Church of Latter Day Saints. Think of that Dennis. The day you die, you become a Mormon…How do you feel about that?..now mind you,,Jesus told them to do that..Yes, God wants everybody to be a Mormon. Ya gotta be a mormon if ya wanta get into Heaven…I am conflicted here. Perhaps you can help me. The Mormons say I can only get into heaven if I am a member of their faith. You say I must follow the teachings of Jesus as messaged by the His worldly representative, The Pope.

What is a secure with his own knowing of what is rite and wrong, and lives his life accordingly, without the help of Angels and Saints and Popes and Priests and other representatives of God, to do? And, even more perplexing,,if I’m to give myself over to God,,which One?..theres just so many choices. I wouldn’t want to make the wrong decision now. Where I spend eternity is dependent on my choice. That’s a long time. Decisions, decisions.

Here’s an Idea. Every 4 years the World has the Olympics. So,,why not a Religious Olympics held every so often. The religion that wins the most gold,,or should it be the religion that wins the most medals..hhhmmm…oh well,,the religion that wins the most gets their Earthly Representative picture on a box of Cheerios,,heck, mite as well have a little ballon coming out of his or her mouth,,saying something of import, like “ Jesus died on the cross for you.” Or, The World will end in 1998,uuhh 2000,err 2003,aaaa 2004, I mean 2013, Are you Prepared?”..or, well you get the idea..Think of all the endorsements?..” Jesus! Just Do It!”…That way the whole world will know which religion to follow in a timely manner. I mean, God wouldn’t allow His Favorite to loose would he? Its just possible, that over a life time, one could have actually been a follower of every religion. Hows that for increasing the odds of getting into Heaven?

See, there is proof of my God. My God actually gave me the inspiration for that idea. I consider myself so blessed. Now, if I could just find a salesman to sell it to the World.
…MEL..ps..incase there is the need to make it clearer,,I stand by what i have already posted. Your Thuggery hasn't changed my mind. The Cardinals selected a person who was a member of the Hitler Youth, The German 3rd Reicht Army and he deserted. He is Their choice..He is Their God's choice..He would not have my choice. He ,I believe, would not have been my God's choice...if my God would have even been bothered in the 1st place...MEL

[Fist and Faith]

Cruel, hateful people who believe in God and Jesus use the Bible's words to justify their way of life. Cruel, hateful people who believe in Vishnu and Shiva use the Bhagavad Gita's words to justify their way of life. Cruel, hateful people who believe in Allah use the Qu'ran's words. Cruel, hateful people who do not believe any religious ideas use the lack of an ultimate judge to justify their way of life (might makes right); or they use the actions of the hateful believers to justify themselves, claiming what's good for the goose...

People, the problems of the world are not the fault of religion, atheism, or anything in between. The problem is people who delight in the pain of others. Alynna said it: The answer is not love of a deity, but love of and compassion for everyone.

People have way too much need to prove others wrong.

[lurch]

&F..Yeaaa!,,and as soon as you see one of those around here be sure to let us know!.

I take it you don't watch boxing. Not one to witness a fencing match?

C'mon,.. lets see here,,,General Discussion and the Thread is Pope Benedict
the 16th,,on a World Wide Web communication system.,aaammm While your sentments I can appreciate,,i don't think any of this ( chatroom and all) is about " the answer". I get the willys as soon as someone says " this is the answer".

Discussions are about " the exploration". Yes, discussions are expressions. Each " expression" is but a stroke of the paint brush while making a larger illustration. So, yes, there is a " Art" involved. One line or one post does not make a Play. For that matter, one Thread does not make a Nite at The Opera.

Yet , we hold our thoughts dearly, and at times the tip of a blade opens and draws blood and perhaps some intestines spill out on to the floor,tragic drama! But we pick it all up, lick our wounds, learn alittle, and, as evidenced here and at every other web site, come back for more.

Step back for a wider perspective. How interesting would this place be if everyone sat around agreeing with each other? On the other hand, its is incumbant to try to keep it all above board,,maintaining the " Art" so to speak. Passions should flair. If you can't handle your eyebrows getting singd, then perhaps, one should look away.

I agree, no swearing. To me, there is little art in that. Aaa, but the rest! Make sure there is plenty of paint on the brush and apply as you are able. Make some Art. There is no winning or loosing in e-discussions. There is just expressions and exploration. As soon as someone says, " the answer is...",,thats like saying , the painting is done, the play is over, fini.

The key is,,just like in improv comedy,always give the other person somewhere to go. Ask questions, ask for explanations, etc.
Nobody knows it all and seldom is anybodys mind changed. But, keep the volley going, always return the ball. Nobody knows where it will lead to and sometimes folks can be suprised with the Art that is created. My goodness, if one is going to sit at a keyboard for a stretch of time, you have to do something to keep your blood pressure up . This is good exercise. True, exercise can be painful. But its only e-pain. Whats the old saying,,if it doesn't kill ya, it only makes you stronger. Well?
..MEL

[dennisrwood]

Lurch: I stand by my view of you. your meandering posts be damned. your 'oh-so-clever' asides. your total lack of coherant thought disguised as artistic leave. I could care less if some cult is going around recruiting folks post-mortem. doesn't change my belief system. there are not a multitude of god's in the Christian tradition. there is one God. your denial of intent is pathetic. stud up and say what you mean.

Alynna: I have not called for converting anyone on this or any other board. I have responded to Lurch and his vulgar attempts of association of the pope and the nazis. and as Lurch has tucked tail on the issue, I am left tilting at windmills, swearing that there be dragons.

I guess the choice is whether to defend my religion and by progress, the leaders of my religion or to ignore and let the lies multiply.

[Plissken]

Are there any strong connections with Ratz and a Nazi past? All I've seen is a few Brit headlines, but I haven't read the articles, and I don't really know which Brit-tabs are worth the paper they're printed on.

[Fist and Faith]

lurch,
It's the need to not just believe oneself right, but also hear the other person say "I'm wrong" that changes things from an exchange of ideas, opinions, and information to what's going on here. If someone is confident in their interpretation of the evidence, exaggerations, lies, and insults are not necessary.

Ah. Like I said in my other post, it's an unwinnable argument when one's trump card is "God is on my side". So to your point: I'll continue to live a good life (show kindness to strangers, love my wife and kid, be honest, not kill or main anyone, etc.). Must be symptomatic of my secular condition.

I'm with you. And it sounds like you take the Oath of Peach seriously. Good quality for a Warmark.