Kevin's Watch

Curiously enigmatic phrase, this, and the author has gone out of his way to bombard us with halfhands who we might want to beware of, but I think I know who the halfhand is going to be.

Just before she's killed and transposed to the Land, Roger/Foul points out to Linden that her hand is bleeding, and asks pointedly why she supposes that is. Answering his own question, he takes it as proof her fate is sealed and he then orders her to cut off her hand.

Now given that we know that injuries in the Land occur to conform to the state of the real world body, it seems logical that Linden is going to sustain a hand injury in the land which Foul considers to be crucial to his plans. You might say "ah she may get a hand injury but she isn't a halfhand, and nor is she going to be." But remember that the body conforming rule only applies up till the moment of death in the real world, and then the link is broken. Remember Hile Troy recovered from his burns after the death of his real world body.

Might it be that Linden will suffer a hand injury just before the death of her real world body, and then become THE halfhand? Everything points to her being the agent of destruction after all.

native wrote:Just before she's killed and transposed to the Land, Roger/Foul points out to Linden that her hand is bleeding, and asks pointedly why she supposes that is. Answering his own question, he takes it as proof her fate is sealed and he then orders her to cut off her hand.

Is this conjecture? I don't recall reading that at all in Runes.
Linden is already in the Land. How could this happen? To me, it seems that the entire Last Chronicles will take place in the Land (or at least on the Land's Earth), not in Linden Avery's "native" world (I hesitate to use the word "real" here because I think to Linden, both of the worlds she knows are "real." So I prefer "native."), much like the Second Chronicles I think we are in the Land for the duration, and that opportunity will not present itself. Having a hand injury is not the same extent of damage as missing half a hand.

I still think the Halfhand is Covenant. And I think that the "beware" part stems from the fact that the Law of Life and the Law of Death has been broken.
If somebody

Spoiler

came galloping up to me after I had factual knowledge that they were dead

, I would be wary as well.

native wrote:Just before she's killed and transposed to the Land, Roger/Foul points out to Linden that her hand is bleeding, and asks pointedly why she supposes that is. Answering his own question, he takes it as proof her fate is sealed and he then orders her to cut off her hand.

I agree right off that the Roger's odd request might tie in with the half-hand mystery somehow.

However, I don't agree with the rest of your argument. Linden's hand is bleeding when she enters the Land. The Law of Summoning (if you will) will dictate that her hand may be healed in the Land, but that before she returns it will be re-injured. But there is nothing that requires her hand to be amputated!

(She is also shot in the chest - or at least, she feels that she is. So she will be impaled through the chest before she returns, too.)

I think a better conclusion is that Roger has a fetish for hand-lopping, and that we'll see quite a few more half-hands in the Land because of Roger's actions.

Another point - half-handedness has never been the same as handlessness. One is missing some fingers, the other is missing a whole hand. So there is a loose connection here only.

Wayfriend wrote: However, I don't agree with the rest of your argument. Linden's hand is bleeding when she enters the Land. The Law of Summoning (if you will) will dictate that her hand may be healed in the Land, but that before she returns it will be re-injured. But there is nothing that requires her hand to be amputated!

True - it just seems to be important to Foul. I think you're wise not to want to go into any detail as to what the connection might be. But it seems to me to be some kind of connection there one way or another.

But don't forget Law of Summoning section 3 subparagraph 2

The physical connection ends when the summoned person dies back in the real world. And they don't return to the real world with the death of their summoner if their real world body is dead. iirc the author has said as much in the GI.

And Linden will die very soon in the real world.

So it is the case that Linden will get a cut on her hand at some stage, and Foul lays significance on that, but what happens next is open. Clearly Foul links the mutilation of her hand to his victory. Why is that?

And Linden will die very soon in the real world.

There is no guarantee of this. There were many people around when Linden was shot. It's possible that she can be saved.

native wrote:The physical connection ends when the summoned person dies back in the real world. And they don't return to the real world with the death of their summoner if their real world body is dead. iirc the author has said as much in the GI.

Yes, but this doesn't contravene artical 1. Covenant was shot through the chest before he died in WGW - an action which restored his condition to how it was when he left the Land. And Troy was consumed in flames; so that's a ditto.

native wrote:Clearly Foul links the mutilation of her hand to his victory. Why is that?

Can you explain how you come to this conclusion? I don't get it.

I think that Roger's reference to the significance of her bleeding had something to do with blood being a requisite for the summonsing.

dlbpharmd wrote:

native wrote:And Linden will die very soon in the real world.

There is no guarantee of this. There were many people around when Linden was shot. It's possible that she can be saved.

When I read this section closely, I felt it was inconclusive whether or not she was fatally shot. In fact, there's some fuzziness about whether or not she is actually shot.

Wayfriend wrote: Covenant was shot through the chest before he died in WGW - an action which restored his condition to how it was when he left the Land. And Troy was consumed in flames; so that's a ditto.

We're not disagreeing, though the difference was that Troy carried on living in the land, whereas Covenant died in both places. So if Linden got a hole through her in the Land, there's no requirement that she die there even if she does in the real world. Indeed it may be she's already died in the real world, in which case she won't get the hand injury in the future as the link is already broken. Her body conformed to its real world injuries at the time of her real world death but she's already healed herself. In which case the comment about the cut hand has no great plot significance, despite sounding like it should.

Clearly Foul links the mutilation of her hand to his victory. Why is that? Can you explain how you come to this conclusion? I don't get it.

Well I'm basing it really on the fact Roger (who is possessed by Foul, we can safely assume) explicitly says the cut is somehow proof of future victory, and then in the next breath he asks her to go further still and cut her own hand off. The first seems very significant to him and then he immediately seeks to reinforce it with the second. So I take there to be a connection.

Also consider this. Let us accept for a moment that the cut hand represents some future injury which it is desirable to Foul that Linden receive and the cut is proof that this will indeed occur. That means two things. First of all, Linden is not yet dead in the real world, because otherwise that link would be broken and that plot device would then be null and void and the desirable cut hand need never come about. But had she sliced off her hand before going to the Land, then the cut on her hand would also be irrelevant as she wouldn't have gone to the land with a cut hand anyway. So Foul must think no hand is even better than a cut hand.

But yes, I really hadn't thought of the blood simply being needed for the summons. It could just be as obvious and simple as that.

native wrote:But yes, I really hadn't thought of the blood simply being needed for the summons. It could just be as obvious and simple as that.

In TWL, it wasn't just blood, it was Covenant's blood, that was needed. (At the time, I thought this was a sunbanish thing.) And the people enacting the ritual were promised by Foul that Covenant's blood would be available.

It seems to me that Roger's comment smacks of the same thing: he was probably promised by Foul that Linden would come and yield her blood, which would allow the summonsing ritual, which would complete all of Foul's plans. So Roger would gloat when he saw the blood, and construe it as proof that Foul's plan was working out.

At least, that's how I take it.

Wayfriend wrote:At least, that's how I take it.

You may well be right. But this emphasis on hands all the time, it does seem to be going somewhere, does it not?

This is amazing. I have read Runes 3x already...but I cannot for the life of me remember this scene.
I will definately have to re-read Runes and pay more attention to the last moments in Linden's native world.

ur-bane wrote:I cannot for the life of me remember this scene.

Having reread it I think to be fair Wayfriend's explanation is probably the right one.

native wrote:...Troy carried on living in the land, whereas Covenant died in both places. So if Linden got a hole through her in the Land, there's no requirement that she die there even if she does in the real world.

I think it's worth remembering that Troy essential sold his soul to Caerroil Wildwood, and IMO it was this that caused him to in some way sidestep his death. The entity that stuck around for the next few milennia was not the same Troy - it was a Forestal formed from Troy. I think Linden would have to make a similar transformation in order to avoid her "real" death and Land death coinciding.

As an aside, this:

ur-bane wrote:To me, it seems that the entire Last Chronicles will take place in the Land (or at least on the Land's Earth), not in Linden Avery's "native" world

has been confirmed. It's going to be one continuous sojourn, like the Second Chronicles.

CovenantJr wrote:

native wrote:...Troy carried on living in the land

I think it's worth remembering that Troy essential sold his soul to Caerroil Wildwood, and IMO it was this that caused him to in some way sidestep his death.

Troy came to the Land 5 Land-years before his immolation.

In [i]The Illearth War[/i] was wrote:A young student at the Loresraat had an inspiration about a piece of the Second Ward he was working on. All this was about five years ago.

Therefore, he would have had to live in the real world for about 5 or 6 days after he was caught in the fire and fell nine stories. I suppose he might have lived for five days in an ICU ... but I don't think so. I think he died more or less right away.

It would be better to say that Troy's real-world death was connected with his gaining his Land-sight. As with Covenant, his real-world death allowed his Land-self to transcend his physicality and become more one with Creation.

I put my money on the three Haruchi who have been mutilated-half handed.I do not think that the Elohim is refering to a certain person so much as to the condition of having half a hand.

Therefore, he would have had to live in the real world for about 5 or 6 days after he was caught in the fire and fell nine stories. I suppose he might have lived for five days in an ICU ... but I don't think so. I think he died more or less right away.

You know, this is the way that I see it as well. I've even thought aloud in the past that Troy could have lived on in some kind of coma in the "real world" until his eventual death in WGW. Others think that Atiaran accepted the death for him when she summoned him prior to the events of TIW.

I still think it's possible that in Troy's case some accident happened and he got transferred body-and-soul into the Land.

I can't remember where but I seem to recall reading the author saying explicity that if you die in the real world, you get to live in the land and the link is broken. Troy was cited as the example IIRC.

Which raises an interesting possibility. When Troy came to the land and the link was broken, his summoner, Atirian, died.

And Covenenant died in the real world, and his summoner, Foul, died in the Land.

Does this mean if Linden dies in the real world, her summoner will also die in the Land? And who is that? Joan? Foul?

Despite doesn't die...

I agree. Every time Foul "dies", he gradually regenerates.

native wrote:And Covenenant died in the real world, and his summoner, Foul, died in the Land.

Does this mean if Linden dies in the real world, her summoner will also die in the Land?

I think it's worth pointing out that everyone who summoned Covenant died (except Foul, as noted above). Drool, Elena, Triock and Foamfollower...

I think it's worth pointing out that everyone who summoned Covenant died (except Foul, as noted above). Drool, Elena, Triock and Foamfollower...

Well it's true Foul didn't really die but for the purposes of the summoning, Foul did die at the end of WGW, which is the reason why Linden was returned from the Land.