Kevin's Watch

YOU are Abraham.
Your God, as you know him/her, has asked you to prove your faith by sacrificing your child.
Could you do it?

I would most certainly tell God where to get off.

I would tell God to bite me. And since he was the one who created me, and gave me such strong love for my children, I think he would actually understand and forgive me for it.

First I would have to see and verify his credentials. If they checked out, well then, see you in hell!

No.

For one thing, I really love my son. For another, according to my beliefs it is not MY right to take HIS life, only MY own is in my hands...


In short, what right do I have to take another's life based on MY own beliefs. Even if it is my own son, as if he is a property to dispose of as I see fit...

Isn't this similar to what some Christian scientists do to this day ? Letting an ill child die instead of giving him the proper medical attention. I always found such behavior ultimately selfish (evil, even) since the child himself/herself is not able to give a choice.

I can't even fathom that. My Goddess would never ask that but if she did, I am sure I would be joining the ranks of the atheists around here. Nothing is more important than my daughter. Nothing.

Actually, it's a moot point. If you were Abraham, your answer would be "I'll do whatever you say, Lord, because I trust you implicitly".

- and God would be so overwhelmed by your love and trust, that He would answer, "Of course I don't mean you to do any such thing... and because of your amazing trust in Me: through your son, you'll be the patriarch of one of the greatest nations on earth".

Edge wrote:If you were Abraham, your answer would be "I'll do whatever you say, Lord, because I trust you implicitly".

How so? If I was in Abraham's place, I wouldn't kill the kid. Or do you mean literally being Abraham in every way--having had no vestige or memory of my current self? Well, then, yeah; I guess I would give the textbook answer, not the Foul answer.

Lord Foul wrote:

Edge wrote:If you were Abraham, your answer would be "I'll do whatever you say, Lord, because I trust you implicitly".

How so? If I was in Abraham's place, I wouldn't kill the kid. Or do you mean literally being Abraham in every way--having had no vestige or memory of my current self? Well, then, yeah; I guess I would give the textbook answer, not the Foul answer.

ur-bane wrote:YOU are Abraham.

But either way... he didn't kill the kid. Again: moot point.

Edge wrote:

ur-bane wrote:YOU are Abraham.

But either way... he didn't kill the kid. Again: moot point.

I hardly think the willingness to kill one's son or not is a moot point.

Vector wrote: I hardly think the willingness to kill one's son or not is a moot point.

The moot point is in reference to God's character, not Abraham's - and let's face it, that's the actual issue here. There is NO WAY He would actually have let Abraham go through with it.

Edge wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

Edge wrote:If you were Abraham, your answer would be "I'll do whatever you say, Lord, because I trust you implicitly".

How so? If I was in Abraham's place, I wouldn't kill the kid. Or do you mean literally being Abraham in every way--having had no vestige or memory of my current self? Well, then, yeah; I guess I would give the textbook answer, not the Foul answer.

ur-bane wrote:YOU are Abraham.

But either way... he didn't kill the kid. Again: moot point.

Obviously, you're reading this differently. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ur-bane's questions implies that by me being Abraham, all my current qualities, beliefs, faith, etc. will still remain intact, and I will not have any qualities of the TRUE, real Abraham, right? I mean, the whole point of this thread is what I--not Abraham--would do.

Secondly, in the hypothetical question, I believe ur-bane implies that we DON'T know absolutely that God doesn’t want us to kill the kid. That's why it's a "question of faith"--whether or not we believe in our maker strongly enough to kill for him/her/it. That's hardly moot.

Edge wrote:The moot point is in reference to God's character, not Abraham's - and let's face it, that's the actual issue here. There is NO WAY He would actually have let Abraham go through with it.

I certainly do not think that is the actual issue here. If Abraham knew that there is no way God would let him go through with it, then his choice has no meaning. It only has meaning if he sincerely meant it when he said that he would do so.

Also: ur-bane did say "your God", and I suppose it isn't your God's character to do that, Edge. In my case, it's different. Since I'm an atheist and have no set values for what a deity is like, if said deity asked me to kill for him, I wouldn't.

Well, to answer the question in terms of 'if I were in Abraham's position..':

No. If I really believed there was a possibility God would actually require me to go through with it, I don't think I could have made his choice. Apparently I don't have as much faith as Abraham; but that's not really a big surprise to me or anyone who knows me.

LF: as an atheist, I'm not sure you're even allowed to have an opinion on this.

Heh, I was wondering that myself, Edge, but I do have faith--faith that a God/Goddess/whatnot does not exist. Plus, I think it's a good moral question that universally applies.

Edge wrote:No. If I really believed there was a possibility God would actually require me to go through with it, I don't think I could have made his choice. Apparently I don't have as much faith as Abraham; but that's not really a big surprise to me or anyone who knows me.

Wow, Edge, I am impressed. I have to admit I wasn't expecting that answer from you. I guess you are right, I don't know you well enough...

Lord Foul wrote:Heh, I was wondering that myself, Edge, but I do have faith--faith that a God/Goddess/whatnot does not exist.

The power of unbelief!

Step away from the white gold... Gently, now... gently!

Now... put your faith where I can see it, & spread your paradigms!

Vector wrote: Wow, Edge, I am impressed. I have to admit I wasn't expecting that answer from you. I guess you are right, I don't know you well enough...

Thank you.

Don't you ever wonder how Abraham was so sure it was GOD speaking to him and not some other entity?

If a voice out of the abyss said to me, "CHO--kill your cat" (Since I have no children), I would say, "Get you behind me satan" since I associate Satan with bloody murders and such.