Kevin's Watch

Perhaps this is going to really bother people. Or perhaps they'll ignore it. But it pertains greatly to the First Chronicles, and to what happened to the characters therein.

After Covenant raped Lena, and after Covenant's crime became known, Lena and her family had a choice to make.
They could hate Covenant. They could forgive Covenant. They could simply not care.

The obvious answer, and the normal, healthy reaction in my opinion, is hate. And that was their reaction, except for Lena who simply lost her mind. Atiaran, Trell, and Triock hated, and they kept hating for the rest of their lives. It could be argued they hated from beyond the grave, considering their appearance before Covenant in Andelain, and that they continue to hate even now.
I'm not surprised. With such a horrendous atrocity committed against Lena (and then, a further atrocity committed against Elena in the form of Covenant's manipulation) why shouldn't they hate?

The answer is because it destroyed them.
Trell spent the rest of his life in misery and pain, and finally he broke and went insane, then (apparently) he died.
Atiaran lived her life in misery and pain, and eventually she killed herself trying to summon Covenant back.
In their pain, they amplified Lena's pain, and they unwittingly aided in Elena's insanity.
Triock also lived a bitter, joyless life. The women he loved was destroyed.

But what is the point in hate, if you can't strike at the person you hate?
They could not strike at Covenant. He was being protected by the Lords, and his survival was tantamount to the survival of the Land. So what's the point in hating him? It's a futile gesture.

Unfortunately, and mind bogglingly, the only logical thing for any of them to have done was to forgive Covenant, and then do their utmost to aid Lena and her unborn child.
Forgive a rapist? FORGIVE A RAPIST??!!!
Yes.
Because the only alternative was to be angry and hate, and since they could not vent that anger and hate on Covenant, they turned that anger and hate on themselves. And they destroyed themselves.
What Covenant started, they finished. They continued to perpentrate the crime on Lena that started with Covenant.

It's a horrible thought, that. That the only reasonable thing to do is forgive someone who raped you, or raped your daughter. It's not reasonable and it's not right.
But by the particular logic of this scenario, it was the best thing they could have done.
Had they forgiven Covenant, they might have taken care of Lena, and her insanity might have been lessened. Elena might not have become insane. The Law of Death would not have been broken, and the Staff of Law not destroyed.

I don't know exactly how you forgive someone who raped you, or raped your child. It is a superhuman feat, and beyond me were I a character in the story (I would have killed Thomas Covenant, slowly and painfully.) But forgiveness was what was needed.

The Oath of Peace was a fundamental part of the peoples whole existance.
But it wasn't a blanket of forgiveness though.
Antarian thought that the Lords would know what to do to, (punish?) TC when he got to Revelstone.

I always saw the reactions of Antarian and Trell to TC for the rape of Lena as another sign of how the Oath crippled people to act, much like it crippled their ability to understand the Wards.

The Oath wasn't just words but I don't know how to explain it.
I used to think that the initial speaking of the Oath was akin to the Haruchai Vow.
That it invoked Earthpower in such a way that it inhibited the use of the Old Lord's Law.
But later we see that Mhoram and Trell are able to circumvent the Oath.
So that threw my Vow-lite theory out the window.

Hate doesn't necessarily lead to revenge or self-destruction. Time heals all, and unless you're consciously dwelling permanently on something (yes, even rape) you will eventually start to think about it less.

You don't have to forgive to forget.

Nathan wrote:Hate doesn't necessarily lead to revenge or self-destruction. Time heals all, and unless you're consciously dwelling permanently on something (yes, even rape) you will eventually start to think about it less.

You don't have to forgive to forget.

Well said.

And also:
in my mind, it is much more important to love than to hate

I would hope that I would have the strength to give love to my child and grandchild rather than let my heart and soul be eaten up by hatred towards someone and something I have no control over

Let my love for my family take priority over bitterness towards a stranger...

…Some good questions there. I know of a fellow who impregnated a woman that happened to be under 18 at the time,,matter of fact she was 16 and he was somewhere around 20. Her parents were at first highly irate and looking to have him placed behind bars. After some thinking,,what good would he do on being behind bars as opposed to holding a job and able to support their daughter and child. ..Not the normal case of “ rape” but underage still. Point being, even on such a topic, there is grey.

…For you and any others, the path thru the grey on this subject is narrow and one misstep is 1000 ft fall into blackness. For any on the other extreme..the path is wide and blinding in its pure whiteness. We see movement towards redemption in characters and real people,,or we don’t. A young man who is to be a father of a child born of a underage mother,,who doesn’t run from the responsibilities, and prepares for the future is easier to forgive and accommodate. Were as a hit and run artist becomes somebody who after spending time behind bars, also has to register where ever he goes. His victims left to their own healing.

…Carrying a hate is just as destructive as the crime committed against you,,matter of fact,,it is the same crime , as you have said, continued. Getting rid of the hate, doesn’t mean Love or even forgiveness. I am suggesting more of a Zen,,reducing to nothingness,,non sequitor status if you will,,of hate,,a self discipline not to go there,, a refusal to let someone else’s problem become yours. In that regard, is any participation in the realm of Hate, an act of self loathing?…The despair you descibe, is again,,of a two dimensional nature…either or…One has to find the 3rd or 4th or 5th dimension inorder to break free of the ever tightening spiral that despair is.

…Convenant slowly accepts the land and eventually redeems himself. He rises above his unbelief, rises above his self loathing, and does the rite thing for the little snake bitten girl and eventually even sacrifices himself for Joan. Donaldson isn’t saying I or you have to forgive Convenant. He is suggesting for us to take alook at what is stopping us from forgiving ,,,or how easily we did forgive ,, or didn’ t care in the first place….MEL

(listens to what you all are saying)

This is an interesting question, but, I think, an inherently flawed one- if it had been somehow possible for Trell and Atarian to forgive Covenant, they most likely would not have gone to the same dooms, but they would not be the same people, and there's a darn good chance the Land would've been destroyed. (At the very least, the Law of Death would never have been broken, and [EDIT]Triock[/EDIT] would've been unable to summon Covenant to the Land.)

Covenant's violence against Lena is not simply "rape," or at least not rape as we understand it in our world. Here, rape is a horrific, evil, vicious crime, and it's effects are impossible to fully comprehend; but it is at least a crime that is not, sadly enough, unfamiliar to us. People have been raped before. They will be raped again. There are social structures already existing to help the victim and her loved ones deal with the crime, and while those structures will always be inadequate, at least they are there.

There are no structures in the Land for such crimes. Covenant doesn't just have sex with someone against her will- he breaks her view of the world, and her family's view of the world. In a very real way, he kills the people they are- the fact that they keep on walking makes it worse. Atarian already has the seeds of despair built into her, as she's well aware of her own failures, and it's inevitable that she takes the mental collapse of her daughter and turns it inwards on herself, making it her own responsibility that Lena was so ill-used. Trell can no longer turn to his wife for support, and watches the man who destroyed his life treated as a hero; I'm amazed he stays around as long as he does.

I think I muddled this about halfway through. My point, though, is that while, yes, the two of them would've been better off if they'd just forgiven Covenant, this doesn't mean the narrative (or Donaldson) is suggesting they they should have done this. There's an assumption here- I think- that, with every character in the story who ends up badly, you can look back to a point where they made the "mistake" that doomed them, that their stories are all cautionary. This assumption, while a logical one to make, seems a bit too "black and white" to me.

Good post Marlowe. Very good post indeed. And Edelaith's too as usual.

I'm curious as to why you say that it is neither reasonable nor right to forgive though. Although "hate" may be a more "natural" response, that doesn't make it right.

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Nathan wrote:Hate doesn't necessarily lead to revenge or self-destruction. Time heals all, and unless you're consciously dwelling permanently on something (yes, even rape) you will eventually start to think about it less.

You don't have to forgive to forget.

No, but that's the way to bet it. Where your memories are fuelled by an emotion as strong as hate, you will tend to dwell on them permanently, unless you make a specific effort not to. And in those circumstances, forgiving is a lot easier than forgetting. I speak from a great deal of personal experience, and many others have reported the same.

Forgiving is certainly the best thing you can do for yourself. No question in my mind about that. It takes a million pounds off of your back. It truly can set you free.

But sometimes it can take days/weeks/months/years to get to that point, depending on what has been done to you or to someone you love. And I always have a harder time forgiving someone for what they've done to a family member or friend than something they have done to me.

In a case like this, though, I would hope that love and concern for Lena and Elena would be more important than hatred and feeling of revenge.

Was Elena truly flawed from birth, or was she flawed because her family was so disfunctional? Was she actually flawed, or was she flawed because everyone important to her as she was growing up thought she was due to the manner of her conception?

(At the very least, the Law of Death would never have been broken, and Trell would've been unable to summon Covenant to the Land.)

I am confused, did this happen?

Warmark wrote:

(At the very least, the Law of Death would never have been broken, and Trell would've been unable to summon Covenant to the Land.)

I am confused, did this happen?

Er, no.

Dangnabit.

What I meant to say was that Triock would've been unable to summon Covenant. And my reasoning was a bit muddier than I would've liked; there is no direct link between the breaking of the Law and the actions of Trell and Atarian- the best I can do is that, had they been better parents to Elena, Elena might not have been so freakin' insane. But wasn't she born crazy anyway?

I'm sure there's some better way of showing that the Trell and Atarian's descent into despair actually had a positive effect on the Land in the end, but it's been so long since I read the series, I can't make the specific connections. My apologies.

Well, it was necessary to the story that they be permanently messed up. Covenant had to come to realize the "seriousness" of his actions, and seeing the lives of those five people (Atiaran, Trell, Lena, Elena, and Triock) was a very large part of him wanting to make things better...

I took the initial post as being more of a "what if" scenario...

Well here's my
I find it hard to believe that Atiaran would have risked her life to bring Covenant back if she hated him so much. I'm not saying she forgave him, but Lena was obsessed with him. I think she wanted him back to placate Lena, as she knew her daughter was in distress, but that is just my opinion.

Hmmm. I always thought Atiaran wanted Covenant back to punish him.

To me, if that were her reason for bringing him back, it would mean that she was so consumed with revenge and hate that all of her additional learning at the Loresraat would have been a sham just to learn the power to bring him back. I just think that the Lorewardens would have seen though her if that was the case. I just didn't get that impression of her in LFB. I see her as someone who is utterly devoted to both the land and her family, especially her daughter, and she would do anything to make her happy again.

I agree, i always thought she was trying to get him just to killl him.

Doesn't Mhoram actually say in The Illearth War that Atarian brought Hile Troy over in an attempt to get Covenant so she could bring him to justice? I mean, he doesn't have a signed confession or anything, but the impression was that she was driven by her self-hatred and despair, not by any desire for healing. The best thing you could say is that she wanted to bring Covenant back so he could save the Land- but I think even this was corrupted by the effects of his crime.

Marlowe, do me a favour and go and check out the Think-Tank, and the Close, two forums found under the link to 'The Collective' on the main page. You might enjoy a couple of the discussions that go on in there.

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Avatar wrote:Marlowe, do me a favour and go and check out the Think-Tank, and the Close, two forums found under the link to 'The Collective' on the main page. You might enjoy a couple of the discussions that go on in there.

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Haha, hes at it again!