Kevin's Watch

Darth, in another topic wrote:Vagel was weak... I mean we heard so much about him in the first book, you expected that this guy would own all the bad and good guys. But he sucked, For all the things that we heard of him in the first book, Eremis was the real power in the second book, and in the first as well. Only we never knew that of course. So all the work that people said was Vagels was in fact Eremis'.

to which I replied:

You're right about Vagel's diminshed aura when he finally appears--he's older than Havelock right? Maybe debauched from Carmag's lifestyle. I seem to remember that he did make some key contributions. But exactly what--I must review the literature!

He did decades of research perfecting the method that allowed mirrors to be made depicting something you wanted them to depict. He didn't have to randomly make mirrors to find things he needed, he could predict what he'd find before he made the mirrors. Without Vagel and his years of work, Eremis would have been powerless to affect Mordant with his imagery because he wouldn't have mirrors showing the right scenes.

Vagel was more important than Eremis.

He was more important in the sense that his skill was the only way that Eremis' machinations could come to fruition, but I think the point of this was something along the lines of Vagel, touted through the books as this evil genius, seemed a little less than awesome when he finally appears.

I think Danlo makes a good point about him being perhaps diminished by the decadence of Carmag, and, in that other thread, Irrational Sanity mentioned the fact that the years of wandering after his initial defeat may have left him somewhat of a broken man, another good point I think.

--A

danlo wrote:

Darth, in another topic wrote:Vagel was weak... I mean we heard so much about him in the first book, you expected that this guy would own all the bad and good guys. But he sucked, For all the things that we heard of him in the first book, Eremis was the real power in the second book, and in the first as well. Only we never knew that of course. So all the work that people said was Vagels was in fact Eremis'.

to which I replied:

You're right about Vagel's diminshed aura when he finally appears--he's older than Havelock right? Maybe debauched from Carmag's lifestyle. I seem to remember that he did make some key contributions. But exactly what--I must review the literature!

Indeed... I always thought that Vagel lacked any... aura of awe that we can sometimes get from bad guys... or even interest.

In the first book, I was thinking, "Boy, I can't wait to meet this infamous Vagel"... I mean he's mentioned so much, and he sounded dangerous... and when we meet him, he's a toothless old man which not much depth to him at all... an extreme anticlimax in my opinion.

if he lived up to your expectations he would have eclipsed Eremis's evil brilliance, and Donaldson wouldn't have wanted that. Eremis was the bad guy in Mordant's need, Vagel was a relic of the past, like Havelock.

Nathan wrote:if he lived up to your expectations he would have eclipsed Eremis's evil brilliance, and Donaldson wouldn't have wanted that. Eremis was the bad guy in Mordant's need, Vagel was a relic of the past, like Havelock.

That is very true... if Vagel had played a larger role, Eremis' place as the big bad guy would have been lessened and cheapened.

Still, i don't like the way Vagel was built up, and then killed so weakly... and not even seeing it.

i think it would have been amazing to see the story from havelocks point of view at the end - when all the action was happening and all the view points were changing, if done right, I think it would have been very popular with Mordant Need's fans. Who agrees?

i think it would have been amazing to see the story from havelocks point of view at the end - when all the action was happening and all the view points were changing, if done right, I think it would have been very popular with Mordant Need's fans. Who agrees?

Sounds like a fanfic project. I'll have to think about it, but my first thought for chapter title Havelock's Triumph...

Nathan wrote:Vagel was a relic of the past, like Havelock.

A really excellent point Nathan...never thought of it that way myself.

Havelocks PoV would indeed have been interesting, but maybe a little incoherent?

--A

I'm going to try and write it actually... post it, and if anyone thinks it's not too awful, but it in the fanfic.

Donaldson won't mind - he said he doesn't mind some of his works being written about - as long as it's for personal amusment, and not trying to get anything out of it.

Maybe we should have a contest to see who can do the best interpretation of Havelock v Vagel?

OK, I've written "Part 1" of Havelock's Triumph. See the link in the Hall of Gifts.

That was excellent IR!!! Please start a thread here and post your link again!!

Your wish is my command!

Haha, caught it in the Hall...I liked it.

--A

Also, Vagel might have been this terrible guy who lacked any real ambition. Maybe he was a guy who was in a sence kept by the High King because he was the best at what he did - an experimental Imager who had a special gift - but on his own, without the driving force of another behind him, that's all he wanted to do. Experiment.

You mean he might have been fairly innocuous by himself? Maybe in his old age I guess, but I was always (I'm not sure why) sorta under the impression that he wanted power for himself.

Still, I could see him as a dedicated researcher, whose inventions were used to further somebody else's ambition.

--A

That's how I always saw him actually. I think he seemed to lack any connection to the world to give him any of the drive we see in Geraden and Teresa, and he doesn't seem to have the madness Gilbur and Eremis display.

However, most of what we hear about him is second hand or worse, so maybe we are all wrong. Maybe he was controlling the other two all along and they were only defeated because Havelock took him by surprise and killed him first.

It's about time this topic got some mileage, it had great potential.

You make an interesting point, and one that could even be complemented by Nathans. Perhaps he was once an evil Arch-Imager, bent on control of his theurgy. But then he just got old. Another relic of a violent and troubled past, like Havelock.

But the other point you make has merit for me too.

Afterall, what exactly made Vagel evil? The fact that he could do translations through flat glass? Did he even do the translations that were tearing Mordant apart at all? Or was he, as you suggest, merely pottering along, making his mirrors, with Eremis and Co doing the actual dirty work?

I like it. More misunderstood than Malign. I mean, remember the "evil" wizard in The Killing Stroke?

--A

Also, there is a possibility that he wasn't so "arch" an arch-Imager after all. Maybe the translation through flat glass that so destroyed Havelock's mind messed Vagel up as well, but in a different way.

So while Havelock was about as sane as a fruit loop, Vagel just lost all drive, all ability to think laterally. Was left able only to do those things he had already mastered, tasks that were logical and sequencial - like creating mirrors that showed a specific place. And even then, he may have needed direction from Eremis or Gilbur to get much done.

Hmm, possible I suppose, although it seems a very selective type of damage in comparison to Havelock.

I think he just got old, and maybe bored. Although, I quite like the thought that he was just waiting for Eremis to win before showing who was really in charge.

--A