Kevin's Watch

I've had this opinion for a while and decided to let it out.

When I read the background of Gildenfire that said one fourth to one third of TIW was removed, I always wondered why. How much else, like GF, did he take out? Now I know. He said he overwrites. He wasn't kidding.

Everything before the Land was tight, strong and fast. Everything from Revelstone on worked for me. The massive block in between needed heavy cutting. I look at LFB and TWL and how much was done by the end of each book. By comparison, Runes would take us about to the point of leaving Revlestone in each of the other two. Basically, I think a third of the book is missing.

The book was rushed. I know that. I'm identifying an element of his style. He needs someone standing over his shoulder telling him to cut more of it out. All of the information is there. The characters and the world are there. They're just hidden beneath a lot of padding.

I still liked it. Everything I wanted was there. I just hope his editors yell at him enough on the next book. He may hate this, but I think his arguments with Lester Del Rey turned the books from good to great.

You're keen on strict editing, aren't you Khaliban? I'm guessing you're a fairly minimalist writer. (Must go and read your Voyager story, keep meaning to, and not getting around to it.)

I kinda like padding in novels. I like detail, I like exploration of the environment, all of that stuff, and although it can admittedly be overdone, it takes a lot more for me to think that it has been. I agree that Runes was too short though.

--A

Khaliban wrote:He may hate this, but I think his arguments with Lester Del Rey turned the books from good to great.

A key point, I think. The editor serves the reader, the author serves the story. The editor effectively dilutes the author's creation, but in doing so makes it more readable. I can understand that being infuriating from the author's point of view; the original manuscript may not be the most readable version, but it's the most pure representation of the idea.

excellent point Jr. And it is those rare moments when a balance is met. For me, I always thought SRD needed a 'backwards editor' who could have gone back in time and edite book 3 and 4 of the Gap series down to one book (!). Having said this, I am aware that SRD's style has developed to be much more appealing to me personally. And I have no problems with the 'padding' or 'exposition' of over detailing or abundant internal thoughts from the protagonist. I think it has become a perfect tool for Linden because she does not have the self-loathing that TC did and for me at this stage of my life, makes for a better read.
I am one to give a good author the benefit of the doubt, and will endure any percieved 'padding'....

I'm afraid I have to agree that Runes is rather heavily padded. As I was reading it, I kept spotting bits that would have been more effective if they were shorter, and digressions that didn't seem to move the story forward at all. I don't get the same sense from the first six books, or very rarely.

I have perhaps been over-sensitized to padding by the exercise I went through last summer, cutting 50,000 words from one of my own manuscripts. But it needed that cutting. And Runes, I think, would have been improved by a similar treatment.

Avatar wrote:You're keen on strict editing, aren't you Khaliban?

Yes, but not by choice. I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum from SRD. I never write enough and must add more scenes until the full story emerges. But some writers benefit enormously from the right editor. Donaldson is one of them. (So am I. You can thank Dragonlily for helping me balance the Voyager story.) The section with the Ramen lacks the tension and immediacy that I found in his other writing. All of his books, other than The Real Story, have been long. This was the first to feel long.

I don't mind interesting prose or vivid details so long as they serve a purpose. What matters is content and density. Runes had content but not density. That's still more than a lot of other writers.

I must agree, Runes did at times feel the longest book of the Chronicles to date. Having said that, it's still a very good book and better than most of the wishy washy nonsense on the shelves, particularly in fantasy.

,,Sorry, i ain't gonna join y'all on the pedestal. If Runes needs editing then all the work of Donaldson needs editing. ..not...One minute its padding then the next minute its lack of density...aaammm...trying out our wings are we?

..Well.. it was going to come to this sooner or later. I've straight out declared the aged perspective of this book,,it does seem to be Anele's story afterall. I've pointedly made remarks to the " appreciation" and "acquired taste" nature of the authors rhythmic use of light and dark..the sense that "time" was just about a character in its own right in this book. There are scenes that are of dark humor, perhaps privy to those who have had their newness sheen worn away by the long grind of life,,and I wouldn't want one of them edited out because someone perceived them as Padding...Every word contributes in its hue AND tone. Every sentence,,no matter how distant from the main plot, story line, contributes to the Theme. In there is the density. When one has to look up a word in a dictionary and read down into the 3 or 4th definition to find the connection to the author's usage,,there is the density. When a character's words, actions and decsions create consequences not immediately expanded upon by the author,,but put up in the cuppard to ferment a little or settle for awhile ,,to be added later,,there is a depth that only one's personal experience can fill, at least until its "correct" time usage.

..Sorry guys,,so far this run by the author has been about the inner consequences of the pebble dropped..inner reflections..so be careful,,with the mirror. There is a line that may reflect the author's position or prejudice,,Its the opening line; " No Mr. Covenant," she repeated for the third time." I can't do that." What a work of art. I was waylayed by that opener for I don't know how long upon the first read of it. Depth! Density! Yeoow!...

...I venture to say,,that giving any reader,,including myself,,another read of this book in five years,,will yeild an even deeper and or better appreciation of it. Time does that for all of us I hope. And seeings how long the author says its gonna take to complete the series, looks like we'll all have the opportunity....MEL

I'm with Lurch here, I wonder how much tone and depth and detail was denied us by the editorial process.

Maybe when SRDs finished the Chronicles he can go back over the decology and re-issue a "writers cut" in say 14 volumes.???

CovenantJr wrote:I must agree, Runes did at times feel the longest book of the Chronicles to date. Having said that, it's still a very good book and better than most of the wishy washy nonsense on the shelves, particularly in fantasy.

Agreed. I have begun and abandoned many fantasy books that could never hold my attention as well as Runes.

I believe he demanded three years between each book, about the time he had for his other series. He must understand his own editorial demands. I anticipate the familiar weight and intensity in the next book.

Slightly off topic... First, I really enjoyed the book. Second, I was surprised at how little time it took me to get frustrated and angry with Linden. She knows she is in the Land, she is familiar with the territory, she knows it has been 3500 years since she was there. Yet she has the patience of a gnat. She gets mad at people because things have changed over the course of 3000 years and they haven't explained every detail of history in the first 30 seconds after they meet her. I couldn't believe how angry I got during her first meeting with the Haruchai.

Alright, got that off my chest. Continue with your regularly scheduled program...

...I am sorry. I threw a hook out there and nobody is biting. If you will,,allow me to expand on the opening line bit and why I see so much art in it. I just can't contain myself any longer.

,,,,,,,," No Mr. Convenant" she repeated for the third time, " I can't do that."
Start with the technical...Two negatives, involving the name Convenant,,point of repeating 3 times made,,and a fine example of alliteration with the " T",,Try to see these words as you did upon the first reading of..no idea of what was to follow..As discussed plenty,,start at the analogous of the Christ figure and apostles denying their association..perhaps a stretch,,but include the alliterative " t" ( the cross) as well..
...Take it down a notch,,TC was Lindens saviour. His sacrifice showed her the way to overcoming her despair,,but it appears we're starting off with,,No Mr Convenant,,,I can't do that...She hasn't been able to completly free herself.
... Take it down another notch,,Tom was her senior,,No, I can't,,is the all too human need between every generation. It seems to me,,that is what the Teens have always been,,rebel against the older generation,,and as the story progresses we soon see Roger doing the same..you failed Linden, now its my rite to take my turn...

,,Take it down another notch...repeated for the 3rd time..She is being adamit about the issue...taking it personal,,i can't do that..somebody else could ( Lytton later sheds lite on how ),,but the message is,, there is a talking to a brick wall element here . Nobody wins,,or due to lack of compromise,,savy,,looking for an opening,,everybody concerned looses..oh ooh...the classic Donaldson trap...no agreeable alternates situation...fertile ground from which the seeds of despair sprout from.

...The Christ figure had his moment of despair when all was against him. Every parent sweats their offsprings "teen" years just as every teen is subject to the despair of rejecting the staus quo and replacing it with ,,what?..their own status quo?...soon realizing,,each of us is limited in our powers and abilities and talents. As passionate as we may be in our beliefs,,convictions,,instincts,,and committments,,there are limits imposed by the very nature of being a Human. Acknowlwedge that and you'll be wiser for it....imho anyway...One great opening line.,..MEL

I thnk you just like to hear yourelf talk (see yourself write?...) ...just kidding.
Point taken, and is what I was referring to in my post. About trusting the writer. SRD is the only writer I trust to give me a satisfying story (not 'happy' or even 'enjoyable') but well written --- dare I say --- art. Even when I disagree with the structure of books 3 & 4 of the Gap series, I know it is a subjective view. I am in the (slow) process of reading the Gap series again and will see if it still feels 'clunky' as I perceived before.
But 'Runes' is fantastic. I think I am one of the few who enjoyed the 'real world' passages more than 'The Land' ones ... but still enjoyed the story once it got there (of COURSE it had to go there...). And I disagree with a previous post about Linden: she is the first character in the whole series, as she is written in book 7, that I can finally feel support and cheer for. I loved TC, especially back in the day when my life was what it was and could relate to him more, but now Linden is truly a great character! Sometimes I think I am reading just because of her! SRD has finally created a 'real' character in the chronicles. I like her swearing and other traits; it gives greater emphasis on the 'magical' quality of The Land. And I think it would be difficult for ANYONE to appreciate or imagine what effect 3500 years would have on a culture. I can understand if it seems that Linden gets frustrated with events and need to understand. She has power and a need herself and wishes to find out as much as she can in order to help herself (Jerimiah) and others as quickly as possible!
For me it is not so much about the coherant logistics of the world that SRD creates, or if there should be technology or not, or if this concerpt of Power or Creation matches with another one; for me it is about the emotional, spiritual, intellectual and moral journey the hero/s take/s. And here SRD is unparalelled in fantasy fiction.


...(Ok i realize i went in seven different directions here, but it's Friday, I just grabbed my coffee and two donuts and scribbled thoughts down before I start work... forgive my spewing.. )

,,Of Course,,as long as you forgive mine. I'm not sure how any poster could do so without being enamored with ones written word to some degree or another. ...

..Okay,,anybody ready for the next step?...maybe this should be its own thread..but...consider...a what if....What if your God or Saviour,,was to meet up with you one day..face to face. Got a minute?, lets have some coffee?,,Lindens faint may have involved some of that. So..now i am entering the area of possibilty, that the author may or may not confirm,,If there is an exploration of the limits of Power,,possibly the author is also going to explore the limits of Power of ones spirituality, and or therefore..the limits of ones God's Power,,?.. God's Gift, Free Will ,,and God's reaction to the exercise of that free will..

..Elsewhere currently there is discussion about Conversation with God..looks like Linden will be afforded the opportunity...Will Tom,,Lindens Saviour, be the Old testament God of wrath and banishment? or the New testament God of Turning the Cheek and Love??...maybe he'll behave in a manner not of either Testament?,,when he hears the news of his sons and ex wifes fate?.the limitations of Power indeed. I may be getting a bit dark on the chuckle but I think the idea is within the parameters of the author...In any case..there is some heart wrenching moments ahead( the exquisite pain I referenced in another thread). The trepidation that froze me when I first saw the Book , Runes,,still holds.....MEL

lurch wrote:One minute its padding then the next minute its lack of density...aaammm...trying out our wings are we?

Padding and lack of density are similar. One is unnecessary text that serves little purpose other than to make the book longer, the other is achieving little with many words.

I've pointedly made remarks to the " appreciation" and "acquired taste" nature of the authors rhythmic use of light and dark..the sense that "time" was just about a character in its own right in this book.

Indeed you have, but that doesn't make the rest of us wrong. All opinions are valid.

...Jr..There is no argument concerning " wrong". There is only opinion stated with back up info of how it is I do not agree. Matter of fact..there is beauty in this thread as it expanded before my post and after my posts. There is Art in this thread and all involved have contributed to its making. There is nothing wrong with that....MEL

lurch wrote:I'm not sure how any poster could do so without being enamored with ones written word to some degree or another. ...

Truer words...

Indeed that is so.

lurch...while I have followed your chain of thought throughout most of the Runes discussions, and understand to a degree where you are coming from, I also think you are diving way too deep at times, IMHO.

The associations and therfore conclusions you have drawn from the opening line of Runes simplly put, blow my mind.

Do you know how I took the opening line? No, Mr. Covenant......remove the comma: No Mr. Covenant. No Thomas Covenant.
That line let us know that we would not truly see TC in Runes. I felt that when first I picked up Runes and still as I re-read it.

But you have taken the simplicity of my thought and introduced pitches and crevasses and twists and turns and dips and bounces that I think quite frankly, while inventive, are just that: inventions.
Sometimes we just have to take things at face value. (Which admittedly, even my interpretation does not, but at least it is only one face. )

...yes, My approach is some what like a shot gun blast..Maybe only one pellet hits the target,,but the notice becomes more and more focused on the subject until its driven to ground..or..cast a wide net and see what comes in with the haul. While one can get all philosophical , that needs to come after the plot and theme is determined. Therefore, my take of the opening line being indicative of a double negative,,a no compromise by either party , the planting of the seeds of despair, the classic Donaldson situation,,ooppps,,there I go again..well,,from that , everything else flows, which is as should be with an opening line....MEL

I have come to the official conclusion that [when I comprehend you ], I like your way of thinking.

But, I prefer to swim in shallower waters, where the sharks of over-analyzing a story cannot get me. (Most of the time)

Hmmm...let's all have a beer...it's on me.