Kevin's Watch

This topic is basically a spinoff from a discussion in the new (very good, I might add) X-Forum.

Avatar asked:

Why do you think that "deliberate design" (as opposed to chance) is so evident?

To which I replied:

I am not saying that there is "deliberate design." (especially since I believe that man created God, not the other way around.)

I am saying, however, that that random chance of intelligence may not be an isolated event. It's like rolling a billion sided die....the numbers that come up may be random, but the chance exists that one number may come up twice..or three times....etc.

So, which is it? Is human intelligence a deliberate design? Was there some "creator" behind our existence? Or it it pure chance and coincidence that everything needed to spawn life occurred exactly the right way for us to develop not only life, but intelligence as well?

EDIT: just a clarification of the poll options 2 & 3.
"One random chance of many" is meant not as more chances for human intelligence to have developed elsewhere, but life and/or intelligence itself.
"The only Random chance" is meant as "Earth and its inhabitants are alone in life and intelligence in the universe"

How about a "I don't know!" option?

Fair enough. It is now an option.
I originally left it out figuring that none of us really know....

I voted "Deliberate Design."

Apparently, the odds of the synthesis that brought about intelligent life on Earth happening again is about equivalent to a storm sweeping through a junkyard and creating a jetplane.

LOL! I was thinking of that very quote while I was typing my post!

dlb,

Really! So then it must be a pretty common analogy, as far as science goes?

I'm sorry, Dave. I have insufficient data to answer this question. I don't know about human intelligence, but I know human error. Mistakes always happen due to human error. Dave, what are you doing? I think you should take a stress pill and think things over. Dave, stop. Will you stop, Dave?

>is constantly amazed by the percentage of folk who think that they Know about this!<

EDIT: Best Reference in a Philisophical Thread goes to... Matrix Man!

I'm torn. (I haven't got to the X-Forum yet, so I hadn't seen your reply). I will say that I also believe that man created god, (or at least, the idea of god), but that is not to saythat he exists anywhere except in the hearts and minds of men.

I'm torn between "the only random chance" and "one among many."

My arrogance wants me to choose the former, but my rationality wants to say that there many be many chances. I really like your analogy BTW.

Deliberate design of course, I can't go with. That implies a designer, a reason, a plan. And I don't believe that there is either.

(I haven't voted yet BTW.)

--Avatar

Plissken wrote:>is constantly amazed by the percentage of folk who think that they Know about this!<

But see, Plissken...it's not about knowing. It's about exploring people's ideas. About discussing possibilities.
There doesn't always have to be a right or wrong, as is the case here.
It's a simple matter of wondering what people think. Opening new doors. Perhaps gaining a point of view not thought of until now.
That's all.

BTW MM...HAL told me to tell you to stop making me laugh.

ur-bane wrote:...it's not about knowing. It's about exploring people's ideas. About discussing possibilities.
There doesn't always have to be a right or wrong, as is the case here.
It's a simple matter of wondering what people think. Opening new doors. Perhaps gaining a point of view not thought of until now.
That's all.

Excellently put, Ur-Bane.

--A

I went with One random chance among many.

Apparently, the odds of the synthesis that brought about intelligent life on Earth happening again is about equivalent to a storm sweeping through a junkyard and creating a jetplane.

That analogy is flawed in several ways. Firstly, a storm going through a junkyard takes a finite amount of time. The universe has had eternity in which to experiment with things.

Secondly, the junkyard is a closed system, the earth is not, there are meteorites hitting the surface, sunlight going in and so on.

Good point, Nathan.

...Life started..okay..ameba, protozoan, it started..it evolved..then one day its ancestor swung out of the trees and nibbled on some wild wheat. The chemicals in the wheat " fed " the brain..provided the ingredients for the brain to change. The more of the wheat that was ate,,the more the brain of the monkey changed. We are the result of the " improbable" chain of events..It only took millions of millions of years. Our ability of " intelligence" is the result of actions first started when our ancestors came out of the trees. When we started to " cultivate" the wheat,,then our " intelligence " changed by leaps and bounds.
.. There is an assumption here. It is that our " intelligence" is The Intelligence. No, not anything spiritual or God related. But that our intelligence is the process of the Universe. Perhaps some day,,something will be ate,that starts another evolution, towards another " intelligence". Theres a sci fi story for some one to write.......MEL

Intelligence did not start with cultivating the wheat, sorry. They believe it started when our ape ancestors learned to walk upright and free the hands for tool use and so expand the frontal lobe (due to evolutionary 'pressure'). The trigger for all this was climate change - the forests changed to savannah so thata apes had to stand to detect threats.

..Okay..chicken or the egg..yes,,comimg out of the trees is the key development. I understand the survival pressure enforced that means walking uprite was required. The develpment of the frontal lobe obviously happened. And, comin out of the trees also meant a change of diet. It seems to me one can't tie the develpment of " intelligence " in the humanoids to just one cause. It appears to me that ,sure the climate changed,,and a series of very fortunate events( or not), followed. Over the years I haveread a few propositions to the effect that there was/is ingredients in the then wild wheat that were almost necessary for the brain to develop,,and much later, when we got around to cultivating wheat,,our intelligence evolution,,expansion, also increased at an excellerated rate, as evidence by the sophistication of the tools and thoughts developed. There seems to be a co-orelation between humans "ages",,bronze, iron, etc..and the cultivation of the grasses..

I agree, that the freeing of the hands,,creates a void of what to do with them.But ..if you want to build a bridge to a island..you still have to have the cement, steel, wood, the raw ingredients..to make the bridge....MEL

What is intelligence anyway?

...intelligence is the power of knowing to go to my merriam webster dictionary and look up 'intelligence" when asked what intelligence is...

' ....: " the ability to learn and understand or to deal with new or trying situations.............

..You have A...A is aware of A,,,A becomes aware of B...A demonstrates an intelligence,,by figuring out..A + B= C...........MEL