Kevin's Watch

It seems to me that the actions of the Waynhim in stealing the Staff of Law wrought great harm unto the Land.

Eg. the people of the Land were denied the use of the Staff for thousands of years. Why did they not give it back, if not to Anele then to another worthy inhabitant of the Land? It seems that the Waynhim share some of the attitude of the Haruchai.

Why did Linden have to go back in time? Normally the Staff would have still been in the secret Waynhim refuge at the later time, if she had not gone back in time, and thus the time travelling would not have been necessary. (The only explanation I can think of is that the Staff was too great a harm to Waynhim and slew all of them during that period, but that answer seems hollow.)

Thoughts, comments?

I am in the process of re-reading Runes again...but in my reads I did not get the impression that they "stole" the Staff. Rather, they "found" it unguarded, and chose to hold it for safekeeping lest it fall into the wrong hands.
They knew the power was not for them to use, and also knew the affect its presence would have on them. But they chose to undertake the task of protecting the Staff anyway.

It's certainly true that Linden had no idea where to look for the Staff. Anele had looked high and low, with no success. So she tried to go back to a time when she could be certain where it was. She didn't quite achieve that, but luckilly, the trail was still warm enough at that time to lead her to the Waynhim cave.

It didn't seem to be far. Anele probably would have found that cave -- if the Staff had not been removed from it by Linden. (Gah!)

Logically, the Waynhim should have taken the Staff, once found, to Revelstone, where the Lords of their memory had weilded the first Staff of Law. There, they would have encountered the Haruchai, and any people of Land.

I was about to say, it makes no sense ... as I type this, I realize that they may have been wary of the Haruchai. The Haruchai probably would stick the Staff in the Hall of Gifts, lock the door, and give the key to the merewives. But why would the Waynhim prefer sickening themselves to guard it rather than letting the Haruchai make it inaccessible?

Could it be that Esmer had made arrangements with the Waynhim?

Much mention is often made in the Chronicles of the mysterious, lore-wise ways of the Demondim-spawn (both kinds). At this juncture, we can't know what they have foreseen or anticipated.

If I were to make a judgement on the little we currently know, I'd say the Waynhim were so wary of everyone they just didn't feel they could turn something so important over to someone they weren't sure they could trust.

I really don't see a mystery here.

The staff had to be safeguarded as it is all that sustains the healing of Earthpower that Linden (and Sunder after her) accomplished.

The Haruchai cannot wield it, and would have rejected it as a tool even before they were corrupted into becoming Masters.

And who has the relationship that Sunder and Hollian and Anele have with Earthpower to wield the staff. There is no lore for it's usage, after all, (unlike with the Lords.) One must wield it intuitively.

Agree with you Wayfriend, but might add that Anele might also have found the cave if HE had not been removed!

I think an interesting blank is in the history of Revelstone, between the fall of the Clave and Linden arriving back with Stave (I'm sure the similarity of names is purely co-incidental). What happened with the people servicing the Clave who lived in Revelstone? Some were slain by Haruchai/Giants but not all. Revelstone is a big place with staff, retainers, cleaners, cooks etc. etc. What happened to them...I think the Mahdoubt is likely to be a link here.

Establishing the sequence of events/changes, in/at Revelstone may also throw some light onto the rationale of the Waynhim and their choices with regards to the Staff. Another aspect of that is that the Staff is a fusion of two beings who, for better or worse, always illicited extremely strong reactions from being of Lore; this may add to the creedence of the point made about keeping it away from the Haruchai.

However, the events revolving about the Staff occurred only a few years (maybe 100 or so, I cannot recollect) after the end of the last chronicles. I'd be suprised if the Haruchai had already taken the role of megalomaniac world police...especially since the opening chapters did not include Foul summonsing George Bush...unless of course Lord Foul is Geo.........?

The Haruchai apparently debated for hundreds of years about whether to assume the Mastery of the Land, IIRC?

I think you do recall correctly, and Welcome to the Watch, BTW.

--A

I too am confused about why Linden's time-travel jaunt was necessary. The Waynhim are extremely long-lived, as evidenced by the fact that some who fought with Mhoram in PTP were still alive in TWL. So if they hid in the cave with the Staff in the past, they should still be there in the "present" for Linden to find, unless they all died off. And even if all the Waynhim were dead, if the ur-viles were able to find the Staff in the past, why couldn't they find it in the present? I'm not sure I buy this bit about there being a "trail" for the ur-viles to follow in the past, simply because the Staff had been moved.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. You phrased it better than I did.

Having also just completed a re-read of Runes I have a view that the trip into the past may just have been one of those journeys "that seemed necessary at the time", the reason for which was only to reveal that the answers were there all along. Perhaps the time travel was also a means for some skill building in the use of wild magic ( in much the same way Foul "helped" Covenant all throuth the I & II chronicles).In any event I think Waynhim were holding the staff in safe keeping rather than as an ill gotten gain and the journey back into time was the test for Linden to pass or fail hence achieve the staff or not?

I think there is a little bit of truth in just about everything being said so far.

At first glance, the time trip may seem unnecessary.

Wayfriend hits on a good point, in that Linden needs to keep moving forward, do something. She cannot stand still while Foul has her son: she elects to go back in time, as Wayfriend said, to a time when they know where the SoL may be.

She is trying to narrow down her search, cut down the time necessary to locate the Staff so that she can once again head straight toward her main goal: Jeremiah.

But still, why go into the past for this? In the past, Jeremiah is suddenly thousands of years away from her. It hardly seems absolutely necessary.

CovenantJr. also has a good point about the Waynhim's wariness being the determining factor in the decision to hide the Staff rather than seek out a prospective owner. They know firsthand what the Staff could do should it fall into the wrong hands.
If the time-trip had not taken place, and the Waynhim had all died, the Staff's location may not be known precisely, but a vigilant search in the present may turn it up. But, it will cost Linden valuable time--days or weeks, months or even years-- time which she would rather spend locating Jeremiah.

So there's our first viable reason for searching the past: saving time.

But certainly SRD has more in mind than just efficiency? I think he does.

What, besides retrieving the Staff of Law, was accomplished?

Well, for one thing we learned firsthand what a caesure could do. We also received a glimpse of the scale of Esmer's power. The time trip also allowed a reason for the re-introduction of the Ranyhyn. And it marked a turning point in the relationship between Waynhim and Ur-vile.

Perhaps transient is correct in stating that it gives Linden a chance to practice the use of the white gold. But she could do that without traveling through time, and risking the Arch by using a little-understood power to atttempt control of a caesure, could she not? So again, I think there is more.

There is a specific purpose for the time trip which is not touched upon yet in this thread. Perhaps I am stating the obvious, but I'll state it anyway.

The main reason that the time-trip was necessary is because SRD needed to let us know that the past and present can now interact in ways which could not be done before. Now, not only can mere shades interact with the living because of the breaking of the Law of Death, but actual living things from the past can now affect the future!

I am reminded of an answer given by Covenant's dead in WGW: (paraphrasing)

Are you not now accompanied by one of the Elohim? How else was that to be accomplished?

Sounds like a similar scenario to me:

"Are you not now accompanied by a Demondim horde? How else was that to be accomplished?"

The time trip was more of a necessity to SRD to allow for future events than it was for Linden to retrieve the Staff.

Ur-bane,

While I agree with your supposition, SRD is supposed to not do that!!

One also would think that if the Ur Viles lore can track the staff with their "snake" they should of been able to do that in Linden's time as well!!

Creator wrote:Ur-bane,
One also would think that if the Ur Viles lore can track the staff with their "snake" they should of been able to do that in Linden's time as well!!

It seems logical to say that the ur-viles and Esmer both wanted Linden to go back in time. As the effect of that trip was to prevent/alter the deaths of the Waynhim and also to bring the Demondin into the present. one might think this has something to do with their hidden agenda.

I think Linden made the time travel trip to save current time. A few suggested this was to get the staff as quick as possible. Consider, when she made the trip back in time, she could not have known how close the staff was. Plus, the staff could have been moved over the next, what was it, couple hundred years? This way, she was on a hot trail, rather than one gone cold by several years. Sorry, I dont remember how long it was.

Creator wrote:Ur-bane,

While I agree with your supposition, SRD is supposed to not do that!!

One also would think that if the Ur Viles lore can track the staff with their "snake" they should of been able to do that in Linden's time as well!!

In my re-re-re-read, I am almost up to the time trip. I am going to pay particular attention to it before I comment further.
(My foot is pretty big, and I don't really want to squeeze it into my mouth. )

ur-bane wrote:....
(My foot is pretty big, and I don't really want to squeeze it into my mouth. )

I certainly have shared that affliction on more times than I care to remember with my size 12!