Kevin's Watch

I was reading through the locked thread about sex started by Lord Foul. I'm floored. That is an amazing thread. It ended with:

If you feel there are signifigant issues that have yet to be addressed, please start a new thread. However, I believe the original conundrum has been resolved, so...

Yes, I most certainly do feel that significant issues have yet to be addressed. If I'm mistaken, I'll take no offense to my post being deleted or the thread being locked down.

First, let me say, LURCH!, you have blown me away. You seem to be one of the few people here dealing with this issue in an authentic, life-affirming way. (I'm not slighting the others, it's just that Lurch is the most passionate example.)

This issue deals directly with the themes of SDR's books. "Life is feeling." [From The Illearth War.] Life is about letting yourself feel. This is exactly the problem that Covenant is facing: not allowing himself to feel as a protective measure against both death and despair. He's not RISKING letting himself feel real, true human passion because he's scared of the consequences. Disappointment, rejection, hatred, etc. Yes, these are potential hazards of opening yourself up, letting yourself feel, letting yourself be human.

SDR's point was universal, not specific to Covenant. We all face situations in which our natural inclination is to FEEL, to let our passions move us. But life within society is artificial: we are constantly reigning in those passions for reasons largely attributed to fear.

In my early 20's, I was not very outgoing. I proudly called myself an introspective person. I majored in philosophy, and wore my introvert label as a badge of intellectual superiority. But what I was really doing was making excuses for my fear. I wasn't just an introvert by nature and by a "higher purpose" of questing after the "deep" answers in life. I was also an introvert because I was a freakin' wimp at times. There were times when I was intimidated, when I was scared to go up and talk to a woman in a situation where sex was an obvious possibility. It didn't help that I started losing my hair in my 20s, and I felt at times just like SRD's leper: a freak, someone that society had rejected.

But then I grew older, into an age where losing your hair was more normal, realized that I'm a good looking guy (really, I am ), met a woman who thinks bald guys are sexy (Vin Diesel, etc.), and have had an a amazing sex life ever since. I realized that one of the "deep" philosphical answers I was seeking went beyond mere concepts, theories, and jargon. It had to do with living your life, your style of meeting the challenges of life. You can choose to subvert your own passions, and pretend that you are noble and "above" them in doing so, but this is inauthentic. You ARE your passions. You are the white gold. Wanting sex is just as natural as wanting love. It is more than the physical sensations: it is expressing your being in the most fundamental way we are instantiated in this world. We ARE animals, physical beings, shaped by millions of years of evolution into precisely this form, for precisely this Act. Embracing this nature, fulfilling your "role" in this dance of matter, is one of the most life-affirming experiences you can have.

It's more than "just be a man," and yet, in a way that's EXACTLY what it is. Facing your fears, meeting life head-on, accepting the possibility of failure, and seeking LIFE is what being a Man is all about. Evolution has given us no function that is more infused with the potential and the actuality of LIFE than physical sexuality. Literally, this is our means of creation. Just because you are not consciously intending children when you have sex doesn't mean that you can shut out the significance nature has "intended" for this Act. No condom or pill can separate you from your essential role in physical reality while you are having sex. If you are doing it "right," i.e., forgetting about fear, embarrassment, insecurity, etc., then you can't help but become aware of your participation in the mystery of Life. I'm not going to say it's "spiritual" because I don't believe in spirits. But it is certainly transcendental. Through the most "profane" act we humans can perform, we are elevated to our most "holy" selves. The direct confrontation with your physical nature, the acceptance of your animal being, enfuses you with a passion like white gold: the power of actuality, the power of being alive.

For those who say sex is no big deal--I hate to use a cliche--but, you aren't doing it right. Forget fear. Be true.

I have urges/impulses, assuredly, but they never come to fruition in me actively seeking out sex.

It's a combination of things. I don't want to get in a relationship; I'm afraid I can't even take care of myself, let alone meet the needs of another person. If I'm insufficient for myself, then why bother with someone else? I'd probably be more of a burden to them than an aid.

That's just one "thing" among many that makes me hesitant to actually try sex. I could go on all night with a list of "things" that dilutes my appreciation of sex, but that list would be overlong and rather boring--plus, I'd like to save ammunition for later posts.

So I have fears about sex. So what? How is it worse than any other fear? I know some fears that are more harmful and debilitating. Don't we all have fears about something? And are we suddenly fearless and completely "open" after having sex? I don't think so.

Eccentricities aside: I understand your point of view, and I'm sure sex will be great, a wonderful experience, etc. BUT--

I honestly don't feel dying a virgin will make me any more "less of a man" than you. Here's how I see it: when I get out of college, get a steady job, become responsible, etc., then isn't that enough? Are we not on the same playing field, or am I still a lesser man for not heeding the "call"? Isn't it just as "inauthentic" to wear an "I've had sex badge", instead of an intellectual badge? It's just different ways of essentially saying we're better and more fulfilled than person A. Just remember: what may be life-affirming and feel-good to you might be something that doesn't hold my interest at all.

And personally, I think a person showing his will by making the choice to have or not have sex is more manly than the actual act of copulation itself. Again: if I have sex, I'll have it when I'm comfortable with the idea of it and when I feel ready to accept any baggage that comes with it. That time is not now.

To conclude: I accept your rhetoric about sex as a transcendental/holy moment, but I don't see it as integral to having a complete life. People have died virgins and died whole/happy/complete/whatever you want to name it.

Malik23, your post was a very interesting read. However, I have to add that I hate/despise the urges and believe they are a thorn in my existence. The same 'life-affirming' drives are also the cause of much pain; I have as much drive as anyone, but continually meet frustration. To be honest, if I could get neurological surgery to remove them, I would. I don't want to sound depressing or garnering pity, it's just that it is easy for some people to believe that sex is life affirming.

For me, the act of procreation, is pure selflessness (though evolutionists say otherwise), which I think is wrong. The act of procreating may indeed be the greatest self-delusion in history; selflessness abrogates selfishness (or the will of self). Probably not making any sense.

Not attacking you, Malik23, so I apologise if I seemed aggressive. Just expressing my views.

Well--I was a virgin till 22 so there's nothing wrong with that. I love sex but haven't procreated yet--never wanted to--as a long time environmental activist I didn't want to bring children into the world until we could fix it (whatever that truly means). But I'll tell you one thing-becoming a foster dad has truly lit up my life-there are enough people out there that procreate and some of them are indictable idiots who have no idea how to take care of children. Some of these sweet kids are very lucky to find a nice, warm, loving, safe place to fall.

Nice words, my friend. I have to add that I am not a virgin, either; what frustrates me is the lack of companionship, the loneliness and the lack of a sex life.

I went through an anti-materialistic phase and was celibate for 6 years 24-30 3 years by choice and three years as a lone wolf with little self-confidence-I didn't even speak to my relatives during those years-believe me I understand what loneliness is. Hang in there! It might seem trite, but with a little faith in yourself, good things really do come to those who wait.

Thanks, danlo. Much appreciated.

LF, I wasn't at all saying that anyone is "more of a man" for having sex, especially for those to whom sex comes easy (if they indeed exist). I'm saying that not letting fear hold you back from something you want to do makes you a man. If you don't want sex, then there's no problem. The problem comes in denying yourself, letting fear stop you from anything you want.

You can be proud of a strong will, but I think this just like the Oath of Peace. People were proud of their will to not be violent, but it held them back in essential ways that left them impotent to Kevin's Lore (power) and impotent to defeat Lord Foul (their own fear and despite).

Believe me, I know what lonliness is like. I can sympathize with danlo--I too went through a phase of isolation where I didn't even want to see my friends or family, because I didn't want them to know how unhappy I was. After college, for some strange reason, I decided to become a truck driver and drove away from the human race for a while. I would go weeks without having a meaningful conversation with anyone. I worked a lot on my book.

Then one day, I shaved my head and decided to rejoin the human race. I literally decided to change who I was. I realized I was responsible for everything I didn't like about myself. I forced myself to grow up. Looking back, reading old journals, I can't believe I was ever that person. Now I'm a cocky bastard--my wife sometimes thinks I went too far in this direction

I don't think it is a coincidence that TC is impotent both emotionally and physically. In a way, they are the same. They are both causally related and symbolically related: emotional impotence is the CAUSE of his physical impotence, while the latter is a symbol of the former.

Loremaster, I didn't see your post as an attack. I hope no one sees mine as an attack, either. LF, you remind me of myself at your age. Good luck with the book.

Lord Foul wrote:Isn't it just as "inauthentic" to wear an "I've had sex badge", instead of an intellectual badge? It's just different ways of essentially saying we're better and more fulfilled than person A.

Well said.

Lord Foul wrote:And personally, I think a person showing his will by making the choice to have or not have sex is more manly than the actual act of copulation itself. Again: if I have sex, I'll have it when I'm comfortable with the idea of it and when I feel ready to accept any baggage that comes with it. That time is not now.

And again.

Danlo wrote:Well--I was a virgin till 22 so there's nothing wrong with that

And I was a virgin til nearly 21. I was ready then.

Sex is one of the best things in life.

It is a near holy experience for me.

And since I'm not a particularly religious person, but a very passionate person it's probably the closest thing to a religious experience I will ever have.

Since it is so important to me...I do not wish to share it with just anyone who happens to come along. To me that would be cheapening something that is one of the best things you can experience.

To me sex without love might as well just be masturbation.

I agree entirely with you, Duchess. (But, then again, I always do! ).

Let me interject one point. Sex is great and holy and transendental, etc., etc., - as long as it is with the right person.

Being ready for sex is very important too but, nothing is worse than sex with someone who doesn't care about you, you don't care about, you are not attracted to, you don't connect with, etc, etc. It still feels good, but it can be empty and meaningless.

In that case, masturbation is better. I

To reach that "holy" place that we all agree exists in sex, it has to be with the right partner. Otherwise, what is the point?

I think Lord Foul has a very good head on his shoulders. Do it when you are ready and with the right person.

Malik23 wrote:LF, you remind me of myself at your age.

Ha! I won't shave my head, though!;)

caamora wrote: Being ready for sex is very important too but, nothing is worse than sex with someone who doesn't care about you, you don't care about, you are not attracted to, you don't connect with, etc, etc. It still feels good, but it can be empty and meaningless.

In that case, masturbation is better.

Plus masturbation doesn't start unplanned pregnancies, pass along incurable fatal diseases, or break anybody's heart.

Ain't that the truth!!

Yeah, but the carpal tunnel syndrome is murder!!!

...Mal..abit of DH Lawrence there?...its been said a million different ways,,but the sad truth is...Life is a singular experience, and the closest thing we humans have to actual sharing an experience with another human being is the sex act. What is a finer expression of our humanity than two humanbeings giving each other pleasure.
...There is a paradox involved as malik suggests..the less of ourselves, our baggage, we bring to the act of making Love , the more " authentic" the act may be....in the expression of our humanity.

...From the perspective of a member of the target age group for Viagra..allow me to say...Sex is a developed expression..It does evolve with partner over time. The act is not cast in concrete. Sex is an exploration with partner....And when the body slows down the production of the necessary hormones,,also comes the realization,, that yes, sex isn't everything..that there is a zillion other things to life....but for everything there is a season. Don't deny natures season. You may Think you are above Nature...but you are not. If you deny nature,,nature has ways of getting back at you. Denying nature is not free...........MEL

In other words "It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature" (old margarine commercial-young 'uns) Damm you're even older than me in that case lurch! What is it the French call Orgasm? La Petite Morte-the little death-and it is said that Orgasm and a sneeze is as close as we come to God and/or death without dying.

Malik23 wrote:LF, I wasn't at all saying that anyone is "more of a man" for having sex, especially for those to whom sex comes easy (if they indeed exist). I'm saying that not letting fear hold you back from something you want to do makes you a man. If you don't want sex, then there's no problem. The problem comes in denying yourself, letting fear stop you from anything you want.

I never assumed you were talking about 'more of a man'. Sorry for the confusion. I disagree with the fear element. It's more than fear holding me back.

I think he's saying that if it is fear, then that's not sufficient as a reason.

(Although, in this day and age... )

Some good points made, but I think what's essentially important is that, as I believe I mentioned before, in the end it is not essential, let alone mandatory, in order to lead a life that satisfies one.

It's the sort of thing that each person must, and does, decide for themselves. In no way does it make you more human or less human, any more than never having left your country of birth does.

What amuses me is how much of a big deal people make out of it. Sure, it is (or can be) great. Fantastic. An incredible experience. But it's not like you'll die if you never experience it. (You'll die either way.)

The only way that could I undestand that people could find it so important is if they truly believe that the only purpose of humanity is to procreate.

If they think that Humanity, and indeed perhaps especially the life of humans, could have any other purpose at all, they must concede that it's importance is subjective.

Because the only thing that is a given if you don't have sex, is that you won't produce children of your own, who share your genetic material. That's all.

Calling "missing out on an important formative experience" enough of a reason that one must experience it is insufficient too. I could say the same about taking mind-altering substances. It can be amazing, it can be life-altering, it's an experience. But that's all it is.

To my mind, life is far more than any single experience, and there is not one that forms a "be-all and end-all" to life.

--A

I agree that sex is not the 'be-all and end-all' to life. Companionship is a far greater desire.