Kevin's Watch

If you've not finished White Gold Wielder, you probably don't want to read this thread. So consider yourself properly warned.




One thing I've never understood is why Foul would ever think that Covenant would willingly give him the ring. We know why Covenant chooses to do so, but less clear is why Foul would not suspect some sort of trickery. I mean, wouldn't giving the ring to Linden, or throwing it in the ocean, or practically any solution be better than giving it to Foul, in terms of how Foul would perceive Covenant's thinking? My only theories are:

1) Foul thinks he's driven Covenant sufficiently to despair that Covenant is willing to see the world ended (i.e. that Covenant, by handing over the ring, is committing an act similar to the Ritual of Desecration), or

2) Foul has essentially lost his mind by the end of WGW (there are strong suggestions of this) and has no ability to analyze the situation once presented with the ring. But this doesn't really satisfy me as a solution, since Foul prophesized at the beginning of TWL that Covenant would hand the ring over, and was he mad at that point as well?

I think Foul believes that he understands the uses of power, and hence the ring, better than Covenant does. He can't concieve of a scenario in which Foul + Ring does not = destruction of Arch.

I don't guess he could even imagine that there could be a defensive action taken which would protect the Arch, which is what Covenant achieves.

I'm not sure how much sense it makes in narrative terms, so I can't help you with your original question. However, symbolically, it makes perfect sense because this is the chief danger for Covenant: "giving" his passions to despair/despite. By giving Foul the ring, Covenant would metaphorically be allowing that part of himself to take over.

It's been a long time since I've read these, so I'm fuzzy on the ending of WGW. What does it mean for Covenant that he DID give up the ring? Why isn't that the same as the defeat I outlined above?

Perhaps Covenant actually giving up the ring means that he finally accepted that part of himself, but didn't let it rule his actions. He gave in, but didn't give up (so to speak). He accepted his own mortality--something he has fought with the entire series, fought his leprosy and his own end as if it could be defeated. In the end, he did the opposite of Kevin: he sacrificed himself instead of sacrificing the Land.

Borillar wrote:One thing I've never understood is why Foul would ever think that Covenant would willingly give him the ring.

I think the answer is so simple that you may be missing it.

'To end the pain.'

Foul's goal is to teach Covenant that, no matter what he does, no matter where he goes, he cannot escape the despair that Foul has created for him. And that despair will be unbearable, forever. Foul simply thinks that such measures will 'break' Covenant, to the point where he gives up and says. "okay, fine, you win, we do it you're way."

I think the answer is so simple that you may be missing it.

Well, your proposed answer is akin to my first proposed solution. I guess that Foul believes he can drive Covenant to an action roughly analogous to a Ritual of Desecration, and it's only surprising to me that Foul, knowing Covenant has been fully briefed on the folly of what Kevin did, would believe that Covenant would willingly destroy the earth in the belief that it would be a "better" solution.

Borillar wrote: it's only surprising to me that Foul, knowing Covenant has been fully briefed on the folly of what Kevin did, would believe that Covenant would willingly destroy the earth in the belief that it would be a "better" solution.

It's actually fairly easy to break most people by torture. Foul is an expert at psychological torture; that's what Despisers do best! </tigger>

He set up all his machinations so that there would be no other possible escape for Covenant but to give him the ring; all paths led eventually to that outcome. Unfortunately, Foul never heard of aikido. As Aslan said to somebody or other (and remember, the Narnia books had a big formative influence on SRD): 'All get what they want; they do not always like it.'

The human capacity for despair is such that no one is entirely immune to it, especially after months or years of extreme duress. It simply never occurred to Foul that anyone would give him the ring from any other motive than despair. And he had been Despising so long, it came as a genuine shock to him to find that his was not the only cunning mind in the universe.

He seems to have learned a good deal from this particular lesson in Runes.

so far...

Borillar wrote:

I think the answer is so simple that you may be missing it.

Well, your proposed answer is akin to my first proposed solution. I guess that Foul believes he can drive Covenant to an action roughly analogous to a Ritual of Desecration, and it's only surprising to me that Foul, knowing Covenant has been fully briefed on the folly of what Kevin did, would believe that Covenant would willingly destroy the earth in the belief that it would be a "better" solution.

I think giving up the ring and destroying the earth (or enacting a Ritual) are two very different acts, even though any reasonable person would claim they lead to the same thing in the end.

One key element that Foul didn't know that Covenant was the WHite Gold. Oh sure when Foul was blasting Covenant with the ring, it hurt real bad, but no actual harm was caused to the Arch of Time

I don't know. I think Foul was stupid. You'd think he was keeping an eye on Covenant. Wanting to watch his (Foul's) handiwork, as it were, and judging how long it might be before Covenant was utterly defeated, and therefore willing to give Foul the ring. But if Foul had been watching, he should have noticed what we did - that Covenant didn't appear particularly broken in WGW. So he should have been thinking, "Wait a second. Why is he giving me the ring if he's not broken?" But then I guess bossk's answer comes into play. "Who cares what the groveller has planned. Once I have the white gold, I am unbeatable! Mua ha ha ha!!"

Fist and Faith wrote:But if Foul had been watching, he should have noticed what we did - that Covenant didn't appear particularly broken in WGW.

Maybe ... but at that point his only chance would be to put on his game face and act assured, wound't it?

Variol Farseer wrote:

Borillar wrote: it's only surprising to me that Foul, knowing Covenant has been fully briefed on the folly of what Kevin did, would believe that Covenant would willingly destroy the earth in the belief that it would be a "better" solution.

It's actually fairly easy to break most people by torture. Foul is an expert at psychological torture; that's what Despisers do best! </tigger>

He set up all his machinations so that there would be no other possible escape for Covenant but to give him the ring; all paths led eventually to that outcome. Unfortunately, Foul never heard of aikido. As Aslan said to somebody or other (and remember, the Narnia books had a big formative influence on SRD): 'All get what they want; they do not always like it.'

The human capacity for despair is such that no one is entirely immune to it, especially after months or years of extreme duress. It simply never occurred to Foul that anyone would give him the ring from any other motive than despair. And he had been Despising so long, it came as a genuine shock to him to find that his was not the only cunning mind in the universe.

He seems to have learned a good deal from this particular lesson in Runes.

Good post.

Fist and Faith wrote:But if Foul had been watching, he should have noticed what we did - that Covenant didn't appear particularly broken in WGW.

I think he did appear quite broken. At least, he did to me. Linden certainly thought he was going to surrender.

CovenantJr wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:But if Foul had been watching, he should have noticed what we did - that Covenant didn't appear particularly broken in WGW.

I think he did appear quite broken. At least, he did to me. Linden certainly thought he was going to surrender.

Well, it's been a while since I read more than highlights of WGW, but I remember him being very strong after going into the Banefire. In my memory, he was quite determined as he was on his way to face Foul. Yeah, Linden was worried. But she'd been what I can only refer to as "assaulted" by Kevin.

I don't know. How's everybody else's memory of this?

Now, see, I always got the impression that, since Foul was an immortal, he had a sense of prophesy, kind of like the Elohim. Foul could see that TC would give him the ring but, he was blinded by his own greed to fully see the outcome. Actually, if you look at it, Foul was outsmarted by TC.

Although, this is a topic of discussion that can go through tons of analysis, I think that the cause of Foul's prophesy and error can be summed up into one word. PRIDE!

Exactly. Foul's no prophet. He's nothing but a b.s. artist. His "prophecies" are nothing more than trash-talk -- they just *sound* like prophecies because he uses the big, intimidating voice, plus the smoke and the reek of attar and stuff. Once he's scared the hell out of his target, then he gets busy manipulating events so that his "prophecy" comes to pass.

Or rather, it more or less comes to pass. Covenant always outsmarts him, because Foul can't see any other end than one in which he wins.

And Borillar, that's the answer to your question that started this thread. Foul is so certain that he has covered every contingency that he cannot conceive of losing. That's why he believes that Covenant will willingly hand over the ring.

This isn't exactly on topic, but I thought it was the best thread to mention it in. It's probably been noted before, but today I noticed something that Covenant says to Foamfollower in LFB.
"What good does anything do you if you kill yourself in the process?"

I liked that.

Nice quote, Somberlain. Conjures up a number of memories from the Chrons: the Banefire, the Worm of the World's End, Covenant's death (both at the start and end of the second chrons), and even saving the girl with the snake bite. I think Covenant's attitude definately changed, in that respect.

This isn't exactly on topic, but I thought it was the best thread to mention it in. It's probably been noted before, but today I noticed something that Covenant says to Foamfollower in LFB.
"What good does anything do you if you kill yourself in the process?"

I liked that.

I think that it might actually be on topic. If Covenant hadn't changed his view on things with regards to this quote, than Foul might have come out victorious. When covenant said that he was focused on himself. "What good does anything do you if you kill yourself in the process?" Anyone who is focused on themselves is susceptible to despair. Foul knew this. Foul might have figured that when Covenant found out that he couldn't win without sacrificing himself that he would despair and just give up the ring. If that was the case, than Covenant's victory would have been one within himself, and the victory over Foul would have been a result of his personal triumph. I think that this is one of the key elements throughout the book. As Thomas Covenant fights his own despair, he is fighting the despiser. It is man vs. man and man vs. himself conflict rolled into one. Donaldson is so cool.

Isn't it neat how much mileage we can get out of one quote? Thanks, Somberlain, and good insights, people.

Fist and Faith wrote:

CovenantJr wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:But if Foul had been watching, he should have noticed what we did - that Covenant didn't appear particularly broken in WGW.

I think he did appear quite broken. At least, he did to me. Linden certainly thought he was going to surrender.

Well, it's been a while since I read more than highlights of WGW, but I remember him being very strong after going into the Banefire. In my memory, he was quite determined as he was on his way to face Foul. Yeah, Linden was worried. But she'd been what I can only refer to as "assaulted" by Kevin.

I don't know. How's everybody else's memory of this?

I'm at work, so I don't have a copy of WGW nearby...but my impression was that Covenant did seem (on the surface) to be a weary and weakened man towards the end. Makes perfect sense to me, since the logic of summoning dictates that Covenant's condition in the Land ultimately has to mirror his condition in the "real" world. (I sound like Spock here...) Of course, knowing that doesn't make it any less moving for us - or Linden - to see him appear to crumble before Foul.