Philosophical Subject of the Moment

[rusmeister]

You misunderstand, rus. I think I know the truth just as surely as you think you know the truth. The difference is, you think we're supposed to take you more seriously than you take us, and even more seriously than we take ourselves. We're supposed to put your faith above the rest. "Yeah, each of us thinks we're right. But, let's face it, we all know that rus really is right." Since you have nothing to back up your assertions, it's silly. If I come out of my house one morning and find a tree branch on my car, and a jagged stump of a branch in the tree directly above my car, I'm going to assume the roof of my car was dented by a tree branch falling on it. You can say, "No, it was dented by ___. It really IS what happened, no kidding." And you think I'm wrong for not just taking your word for it, and ignoring the evidence.

I think this a misrepresentation. I expect that as long as you think you are right, you will not think me right. I can only hope to show where exceptions are presented as rules, and where the idea that people who do wrong do NOT think that they do wrong is an error. If you consistently deny that, then that's the end of the conversation. I may be able to demonstrate it to nearly everybody else, to whom it is obvious that wrong-doers do generally justify themselves in one way or another even when there is no immediate threat of punishment, and it is what we see in the expressions used all the time "I was here first", and so on, but I won't trouble to try to convince you when you don't see it.

I don't mean the moral compass issue. I mean your worldview in general.

Understood. But that is the very issue that establishes a rational basis for my belief - that it is not merely 'an opinion' but can be seriously considered as something actually true.

[Fist and Faith]

Except my interpretation of how humans behave is different from Lewis' interpretation of how humans behave. I say mine is actually true; you say Lewis' is actually true. But you think Lewis' "really IS, no kidding" actually true, and that I should agree. But I think mine "really IS, no kidding" actually true. But you think I'm supposed to take your view as being more serious than mine. But mine is TRUE.

[rusmeister]

Except my interpretation of how humans behave is different from Lewis' interpretation of how humans behave. I say mine is actually true; you say Lewis' is actually true. But you think Lewis' "really IS, no kidding" actually true, and that I should agree. But I think mine "really IS, no kidding" actually true. But you think I'm supposed to take your view as being more serious than mine. But mine is TRUE.

At least we have THAT in common, and I see that as the main hope for you in the long run.

I also think that prices will be paid in the long run for wrong choices now. In my own case, my older son saw me live a life openly disdaining faith, and that had a profound influence on him that I now greatly regret. At least I came to my senses in time for my younger children.

[[Syl]]

Assume you've been found guilty of some horrible crime. You've been sentenced to ten years, without parole. Upon sentencing, the judge offers you two options. The first is solitary confinement. The second is sharing a cell with Vernon.

Vernon is not a nice person. He's not mean, necessarily, but he obviously cares for no one, perhaps not even his own self. He rarely speaks, and will almost never engage in conversation. Usually he leaves you alone, but he may occasionally slap or punch you (never causing any lasting damage).

Assume the cell is easily big enough for two people. No excursions outside, adequate food is delivered three times a day through a slot in the floor.

Which do you choose?

[Vraith]

I'd take solitary, given the option, especially if actually guilty, but the same even if wrongly convicted.

[Fist and Faith]

Either be alone, or be with someone who will slap or punch me more often than he'll talk with me? Not even a close call.

[[Syl]]

OK, let me add that the things Vernon does say are usually pretty damn fascinating. He also frequently engages in some eccentric, interesting behavior.

[Fist and Faith]

Nope. Hell, I might want solitary no matter who my roomie is, so I wouldn't have to see any of the others. Don't want any shower incidents.

[Avatar]

Hahaha, solitary for me too. No question. Not that it's necessarily about Vernon. (Although obviously that's part of it.) I'd just prefer to be alone.

--A

[aliantha]

Solitary. (I think you've stumbled into a nest of introverts here! )

[[Syl]]

Perhaps. I take it everyone has considered the effects that ten years of absolute solitary will have on your mental stability?

[Savor Dam]

Syl, consider also that the question has been put to Watchers, not a random population. There is already a unique spin to the mental stability and prevailing mindset.

Let's stipulate that bedding and other consumables are kept supplied the same way food is, and that the cell infrastructure will need no maintenance the entire decade of incarceration. While there are no excursions and no contact with the correctional officers / other inmates, is there any stimulation, i.e. printed material, video or internet access? Given the design of the hypothetical scenario, I would expect not...but it is worth asking.

Based on the expected answer, solitary...reluctantly. I would like to believe that over time that I could reach Vernon and arrive at a détente that would make our shared ordeal more bearable...but I am not sure, and would prefer a hell of my own making to one imposed by the vagaries of another such as Vernon is described to be.

[Avatar]

Perhaps. I take it everyone has considered the effects that ten years of absolute solitary will have on your mental stability?

Willing to risk it on my confidence in my own mental stability.

--A

[lucimay]

Perhaps. I take it everyone has considered the effects that ten years of absolute solitary will have on your mental stability?

Willing to risk it on my confidence in my own mental stability.

--A

yep. me too. considering that the last 20 years of my life i've been living with vernon...well...ok, a reasonable facimile thereof (the occasional punches are verbal not physical but hurt just as much) in a studio apartment in the tenderloin...yeah...gimme some freakin solitary.

[Fist and Faith]

That sounds like you just gave yourself good advice, Luci.


So how big is Vernon? If he's 5'2", I'll stay with him, occasionally get slapped or punched, and smack the shit outta him until he stops permanently.

[[Syl]]

Well, since nobody is going to take the other side, I'll just admit that it was simply a thought experiment to see how people cope with an apathetic universe. More specifically, is there any meaning to interaction if the Other doesn't care, or is there value in companionship if it does not deliver any direct returns? *shrug*

[Vraith]

Hmmm....I wonder if you'd get different results if you modified the scenario...if the cause of the situation wasn't something framed as intentional captivity/punishment?

[Avatar]

...More specifically, is there any meaning to interaction if the Other doesn't care, or is there value in companionship if it does not deliver any direct returns? *shrug*

I think returns depend on your own point of view. There are returns that may not be that direct perhaps. Hell, look at us here...is one of the returns an audience?

--A

[peter]

Hmmm....I wonder if you'd get different results if you modified the scenario...if the cause of the situation wasn't something framed as intentional captivity/punishment?

Can I modify it in this way. You are a Schizophrenic. The condition became manifest in your late teens when, after a happy childhood and adolescence you have a complete breakdown in which your life descends into a nightmare existence of delusion, pain and anguish that never grants you a moments respite untill each night you fall, exhausted and broken, into a fit full sleep. The following day the cycle begins again. And the next. And the next.....

Finally released from psychiatric care in a state of unstable equilibrium that is maintained only by the regular doses of anti-psychotics and tranquilisers, you settle into sort of routine in which you survive, alone (your family have long since abandoned you due to the destuctive effect your intolerable behaviour has on it, and you are ugly and unkempt due to not having energy enough left after mere survival for personal care and so will never have a partner) and uncared for. If your life could be painted it would be a smear of anguish across the canvas.

The years pass and against all odds you survive, untill one day, much the same as any other, you have an epiphany. You realise that all the hoping, all the waiting for things to turn around for you, all the feeling that some day, somehow, it would all be right - is a waste of time. It's not going to happen. the way you are is the way you were made, and it's never, never going to change. This is the way it is for you. This is the way it will always be.

Question :- What does the doctrine of atheism prescribe as the best course of action for you.

[Avatar]

Come to terms with it.

--A