Kevin's Watch

I have two questions based on Elena's sculpture:

1) In TIW, when Elena gives the marrowmeld sculpture to Covenant, she asks him what he thinks it portrays, and he responds that he thinks it portrays Bannor or the Bloodguard in general. She responds that she is "not so bad a sculptor", and that it actually represents Covenant. But later (i.e. in PTP), Mhoram seems to say that the sculpture is a mixture of Covenant and the Bloodguard. And Bannor says at one point "Have you forgotten that High Lord Elena carved our faces as one in her last marrowmeld work?" So how is this explained? Did Elena deliberately mislead Covenant as to the sculpture's true nature?

2) I'm unclear as to whether Elena knew what she was communicating when she made the sculpture, i.e. the secret to the Ritual of Desecration...

This is a tricky issue. Here are my thoughts.

First off, I do not believe Elena knew the secret to the RoD. We never saw evidence that she had that kind of power, and we never saw her struggling with the knowledge the way Mhoram does in TPTP.

But let's suppose she DID know the secret of the RoD. Why didn't she try to tap into its power? The reason that springs to mind is that she knew it was too much for her; that she wasn't wise enough to use it safely. This is obviously not the answer, however, because if she was wise enough to think that, she wouldn't have been stupid enough to have done what she did.

So I don't think she was trying to be subtle. (I don't think she had a lot of subtle in her anyway. I think she was more the "Hulk will smash!" type.) I think she subconsciously recognized what Mhoram saw - that Covenant and the Bloodguard both required absolutes. I don't think that she would have understood the importance of this even if she had consciously made the connection. But her subconscious did understand there was something important about it (Not even necessarily in ways that relate to the RoD. That's just how Mhoram perceived it all.), and it was exploring the idea while she was sculpting. (Not unlike the theory that Creator's subconscious was exploring ideas while he was sculpting/creating.)

I agree with FnF: Elena intended to sculpt Covenant, and the similarities to Bannor were subconsciously added.

Just what those subconscious motivations were, I cannot begin to comprehend. Elena was sculpting to appeal to Covenant, to reach him, to continue the struggle to win him over. Perhaps it is just as Mhoram said, in trying to fulfill Covenant's desire for absolutes, she internally recognized the same condition in the Bloodguard. Perhaps, because she was trying to capture some of that desire in her art, it came out.

But this is not the secret of the Ritual. This is just a stimulous to Mhoram's mind, one which, combined with many other things, led him to the discovery of the secret. The secret of the Ritual is another thing which, like Covenant, like the Bloodguard, required absolutes. Absolute passion, with no reservation.

that Covenant and the Bloodguard both required absolutes.

I agree, The Bloodgaurd needed absolute service while TC wanted answers.

Wayfriend, you just made things clearer for me! As you say, Elena was trying to appeal to Covenant. Subconsciously, she sculpted the combo of him and the Bloodguard because she recognized - consciously or not - this particular similarity, and she knew Covenant thought highly of them, and would think this an honor. We, of course, probably know more specifics about how he felt about the Bloodguard than Elena did. For example, we know that it meant much to him that the Bloodguard never forgave him.

Yes, then Mhoram made the connection of the absoluteness of the Bloodguard and TC to the absoluteness of the Oath of Peace. When he discovered that, he realized that he had the power to enact the Ritual of Desecration.

And then used that power in a different way.

Don't you start with me!

Mwaaaa ha ha ha

I think it was something in Mhoram that allowed him to learn the secret of the ritual of desecration. It was the same thing the raver feared when it was within the urvil that he fought.

I think Elena could have discovered it as well, had Covenant accepted being her father. Afterall Mhoram told the Lords in the Power that Preserves, that it was simply a matter of making sure to fight for love rather than hate... and Elena was a fatherless girl, simply trying to remove the one obstacle to her self realisation. She probably would've been an even more powerful Lord than Mhoram, if only Covenant had acknowledged and accepted her as his daughter.

Granted I thought a lot of that off the cuff. Some of that might prove inconsistent with some of your interpretations of the characters.

Tjol wrote:I think it was something in Mhoram that allowed him to learn the secret of the ritual of desecration. It was the same thing the raver feared when it was within the urvil that he fought.

Absolutely! Everybody knew Mhoram was something special! As you point out, even samadhi. Here's more.

"All right. So you're right. Tell me, just where the hell do you get hope?"

Slowly, the Giant rose to his feet. He towered over Covenant until his head nearly touched the ceiling. "From faith."

"You've been dealing with humans too long - you're getting hasty. 'Faith' is too short a word. What do you mean?"

Foamfollower began picking his way among the flowers. "I mean the Lords. Consider, Covenant. Faith is a way of living. They have dedicated themselves wholly to the services of the Land. And they have sworn the Oath of Peace - committed themselves to serve the great goal of their lives in only certain ways, to choose death rather than submit to the destruction of passion which blinded High Lord Kevin and brought the Desecration. Come - can you believe that Lord Mhoram will ever despair? That is the essence of the Oath of Peace. He will never despair, nor ever do what despair commands - murder, desecrate, destroy. And he will never falter, because his Lordship, his service to the Land, will sustain him. Service enables service."

"Do Callindrill and Verement live?"

"Yes. I saw their fire. Can you reach them? They don't have any of that High Wood."

Mhoram smiled grimly. "What message shall I give?"

Now Troy studied Mhoram. He felt oddly vulnerable without his sunglasses, as if he were exposed to reproach, even to abhorrence, but he could see Mhoram acutely. What he saw reassured him. The Lord's eyes gleamed with hazardous potentials, and the bones of his skull had an indomitable hue. The contrast to his own weakness humbled Troy.

He paused again, weighing his words before he said, "Many of you have known Lord Mhoram longer than I have. You know what kind of man he is. He'll succeed. You know that."

"What can he do? Revelstone is besieged by an army as unanswerable as the Desert. High Lord Mhoram and all the Council are prisoners in Lord's Keep. We are less helpless than they."

"Triock, you're making a big mistake if you ever assume that Mhoram is helpless."

"The Unbeliever speaks truly," Foamfollower said. "The son of Variol is a man of many resources. Much that may appear impossible is possible for him."

Tjol wrote:I think Elena could have discovered it as well, had Covenant accepted being her father. Afterall Mhoram told the Lords in the Power that Preserves, that it was simply a matter of making sure to fight for love rather than hate... and Elena was a fatherless girl, simply trying to remove the one obstacle to her self realisation. She probably would've been an even more powerful Lord than Mhoram, if only Covenant had acknowledged and accepted her as his daughter.

As usual, I disagree whenever anyone says something good about Elena. But seriously, I don't see evidence to support this. Although I don't remember exactly how he worded it, SRD said the Ranyhyn chose her for the horserite because they recognized her potential to act extravagently, and they wanted her to have their interests in mind if and when she did. She was chosen to be High Lord for largely the same reasons. But she never actually accomplished anything or demonstrated much wisdom that I can remember. She just made big mistakes.

Also, I think Covenant did acknowledge and accept Elena as his daughter. Her problem was that he wouldn't take her as his lover!

Well, my opinion is that Elena is Mhoram minus the wisdom to apply herself. To debate her virtue or lack of is a bit tricky, since her tale is already told.... but I imagine, had Covenant given her some affirmation... she would have had pause to reconsider the consequences of her actions. She obviously was trying to prove something to Covenant, everyone else in the Land was already impressed.

Now it is fair to say that she neglected the Ranhyn's interests, and she may have neglected Covenant's as well, but I really doubt it.

Mhoram's among my favorites, but as presented in the story, I think Elena was only a little short of being able to become the same kind of lord.

Tjol wrote: Mhoram's among my favorites, but as presented in the story, I think Elena was only a little short of being able to become the same kind of lord.

Wohaa!!! Elena to me was a woman on a power trip! She wanted power to help her destroy Foul, hence the way she went about looking for 7th Ward with Amok (while leaving her army & fellow lords to fight without her - who knows, if the Staff of Law was at the battles of Doom's Retreat & Doriender Corishev then maybe there might have been a different outcome!) and even lusting aftyer her own father Covenant because basically he had the ULTIMATE power ie wild magic!

Floyd is correct. It is known.

I say Bah! to the anti-Elena camp.

May Elena command you from your grave to be her slave til the end of days!

Matrixman wrote:I say Bah! to the anti-Elena camp.

Make that 'Pah!' and I'm with you.

The only character I hate more then Elena is Linden.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:The only character I hate more then Elena is Linden.

Matrixman wrote:May Elena command you from your grave to be her slave til the end of days!

Now that I have no problem with!!

High Lord Tolkien wrote:The only character I hate more then Elena is Linden.

I am with the anti-Elena and Linden camp. I am re-reading TIW right now and am trying to be more open minded but Elena irritates me soooo much!