Kevin's Watch

Holt wrote:]Did they really think their misguided species could ever win against the Amnion? Did they actually imagine that an ideal police force - backed by an ideal budget, of course - could protect them from Amnion imperialism? They were wrong. Oh, in the short term human production methods gave them the advantage. But over the long haul that would prove to be an illusion. Amnion genetic imperatives were steadier and more relentless than almost any amount of human political will. The aliens would study human production, human tissue, human decisions, and grow stronger. The process might take years or decades: it might even take centuries. The Amnion didn't care. The moment humankind's determination wavered, the whole life-form would be swept out of existence.

Holt wrote:His species as it stood didn't deserve to survive: that was the crucial point. Therefore humankind had to change. They had to learn from the Amnion as much as the Amnion learned from them.
They had to become capable of what the Amnion could do.
Force-growing infants.
Imprinting minds.
Practical immortality.
The Amnion had it already. They passed their peculiar consciousness undisturbed from one generation to the next. Their bodies had become tools, organic artifacts, to be shaped, used and discarded as necessary: when one suffered damage, grew old, or died, they simply imprinted themselves upon another. For that reason their ultimate victory over humankind was inevitable. There was no limit to how much they could learn - or how long they could wait.
But if human beings acquired the same capability - if they developed the skill to pass their minds from one inadequate, mortal body to the next - if Holt could prolong his own life indefinitely - Ah, then the nature of the real contest would be altered. Then humankind's innate talents for treachery and mass production would enable them to overwhelm their genetic enemies. And Hold would lead humanity into a limitless future.
Death would never be able to touch him.

Hashi wrote:]Frankly, I took offense myself. Every fiber of my being is
outraged by such simple-minded foolhardiness. And yet I am
forced to concede that the Amnion might indeed "get the mes-
sage." A bloodthirsty honesty can hardly serve humanity's
future less well than did the Dragon's policy of monomaniacal
manipulation.

What is the best well to beat the Amnion? We know that they will never stop in seeking to destroy, or rather, turn us into one of them; So how can we go about beating them?

Is what Holt says true? "In the short term human production methods gave them the advantage. But over the long haul that would prove to be an illusion."

This question also has relevane to a previous topic I have made recently. How can you hurt the Amnion the most? If they are a hive-mind species, then all you have to do, is simply kill the queen, and they are all dead. But if you believe, as I do, that they are not a hive-mind; but rather they act because that is the way they are genetically coded to act.

The opposing hypothesis held that the Amnion were driven, not by a collective intelligence or hive mind, but by the essential coding of the nucleotides which comprised their RNA. They have no human-like abstract concepts for the same reason that they have no human-like pronouns: they needed none. Their imperialism was genetic in content as well as in form; in inspiration as well as in effect. Commandments analogous to the human lust for reproduction impelled their actions. They were unified and moved by impulses at once more profound, more global and more imaginable than the directive of some impossibly distant - as well as impossible homogeneous - 'queen'

Adherents of the genetic imperative theory argued that no surgical strike anywhere in forbidden space could have a meaningful impact on the threat which the Amnion presented. The motley and multifarious pageant of life in the galaxy would never be safe until every single Amnion was stricken from existence.

If this is true, then it wouldn't matter how badly you hurt, or crush them, they would go on existing until they were extinct. Which, within the contents of the story, would be in pratical terms impossible, because the human characters in the story know near to nothing about Forbidden Space, where every single station is, or even where the Amnion planet is, or if there are any Amnion ships; so the reality of the situation at hand would make it impossible to truly eradicate the entire Amnion race from the galaxy.

How then, do we stop them? How can humankind beat the Amnion?

Is Holt right in his belief that his is the only way to deal with the Amnion? Is the only possible way to beat the Amnion is to get the same capabilities as them?

If this is true, then Warden did wrong by bringing down Holt Fasner. Oh, morally, he did excellently; the 'right' thing; but he could well have doomed humankind at the same time. Holt was the only character we knew who saw the realities of how hard it would be to win a war against the Amnion.

Or is Min right? by keeping what Hashi aptly called a 'bloodthirsty honesty', in regards to the Amnion? But in truth, how can this help humankind, because if the Amnion took no action, then they would be left to learn and grow unchecked; and by the time humankind decided to do take action against the Amnion, it could well be too late.

Or is the answer a completely different one from any Holt and Min had? Do any of you have any that might serve humanity better within the story?

The way I see it, the safest thing to do (over the long term) is to start a war while we still have an advantage over the amnion. They can't yet develop amnioni that appear to be human, but they're close. We should wipe them out before they perfect their experiments, it must only be a matter of time!

But in the short term, it's safer to keep the peace. As long as the amnion suspect they'll lose any war they won't start one, so keep them thinking they'll lose and there will be no war.


Personally, I'd go with the war. Wipe them out before they do the same to us. We know they plan to, they've admitted it. So why wait for it if waiting gives them the advantage?

Excellent post and excellent questions.
The one crucial element of this discussion we have to keep in mind, is whatever Holt says has to be taken with a grain of salt (or a whole lot). Not because he is lying, I think we can beleive that HE beleives what he thinks. But because he has such little faith in the human raise and how far a person or persons can go to achieve greatness. How for one can be pushed to be better than they are. That's one of the key points of the story, and exactly why Holt was defeated.

I think, in this given senario, that humankind is definately destined to triumph over the Amnion. the fact that the writer did not, and likely will not, continue the story past what is already done, is because it is not necessary within the context of what the story was about.

The problem with the Amnioni is that, as others have pointed out, their genetic imperialism isn't the result of a rational conclusion that can be altered, it's inherent to what they are.

That being the case, humanity is effectively at war already; it's just that the Amnion are waiting until they have a decisive edge before they take it from a cold war to a hot one. And it doesn't matter whether it takes ten years or ten thousand, sooner or later the time will be right and they will come.

Nasty though it is, a war of extermination may be the only way for humanity to survive.

Many assumptions are needed of course. Extermination might not be the necessary answer if the bite humans give the amnion is strong enough fo rthem to concider 'survival' and go out and seek another life source, another race of biengs...
<shrug>

No, the Amnion won't try and stop to apply mutagens to humans, it's not coded into their genetic character.

People don't like to think that humans would be wipped out, exterminated; so they choose to believe that humans would win. In this case however, I think, after a lengthly stale-mate; within the contents of the story, humans will lose.

Martin wrote:No, the Amnion won't try and stop to apply mutagens to humans, it's not coded into their genetic character.

People don't like to think that humans would be wipped out, exterminated; so they choose to believe that humans would win. In this case however, I think, after a lengthly stale-mate; within the contents of the story, humans will lose.

I agree. Based on the information SRD gives us about the Amnion, there's no way we could beat them.

Based on the information SRD gives us about the Amnion, there's no way we could beat them.

... I'm not sure I agree, nor do I understand where SRD's story leads us to believe that the Amnion cannot be defeated. It's vaugue, yes, (just the way i like it ), but I think the whole point of the story is about people redeeming themselves, and humankind, by going above and beyone what is 'normally' expected of them. In this respect, I think this is what is hinted at (at least in my reading)...

... but it would certainly make a good GI question... hint, hint, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more...

for every ship of the amnion's that we destroy, they have to build another one with their inefficient industrial techniques. For every ship of ours they destroy we can create another one far more quickly with our (by comparison) efficient techniques.

They trade quality for quantity. Human ships have the advantage of numbers and manoeuvrability (because the amnion insist on mounting super light proton cannons on their defensives).

Example: The Cruiser Punisher, already damaged, managed to take on the Behemoth class Calm Horizons one on one for a very long while, just because it was more manoeuvrable.

Plus, it's easy to just to suck an amnion ship into a singularity grenade explosion (pup did it, and he was off his head at the time). We just have to do that every time they come along. Game, set, match.

True, but the Amnion are nothing if not relentless. As long as one survives with the "syrum", we, as humans, are in danger.

The Modest Gentleman wrote:for every ship of the amnion's that we destroy, they have to build another one with their inefficient industrial techniques. For every ship of ours they destroy we can create another one far more quickly with our (by comparison) efficient techniques.

They trade quality for quantity. Human ships have the advantage of numbers and manoeuvrability (because the amnion insist on mounting super light proton cannons on their defensives).

Example: The Cruiser Punisher, already damaged, managed to take on the Behemoth class Calm Horizons one on one for a very long while, just because it was more manoeuvrable.

Plus, it's easy to just to suck an amnion ship into a singularity grenade explosion (pup did it, and he was off his head at the time). We just have to do that every time they come along. Game, set, match.

Yeah, because obviously in a full out war every Amnion ship is going to stay in the exact same position, wait for a ship and command module to get close enough to attach itself to it's hull, and then stay still just in time to let someone set of a singularity grenade on it.

And I am not talking about how fast ships can be built; we're talking about the Amnioni's ability to be able to pass as human, which they will one day be able to do, and once that happens, we're finished. Because this stalemate we have on right now only benefits the Amnion.

Martin wrote:Yeah, because obviously in a full out war every Amnion ship is going to stay in the exact same position, wait for a ship and command module to get close enough to attach itself to it's hull, and then stay still just in time to let someone set of a singularity grenade on it.

I can see your point.

And I am not talking about how fast ships can be built; we're talking about the Amnioni's ability to be able to pass as human, which they will one day be able to do, and once that happens, we're finished. Because this stalemate we have on right now only benefits the Amnion.

That's why we start the war now!

But we don't. Remeber: SRD said there will be a long stalemate.

Unless of course you a jesting and talking of Loremasters game...

Martin wrote:But we don't. Remeber: SRD said there will be a long stalemate.

Unless of course you a jesting and talking of Loremasters game...

You can't ask 'what do you think should happen' and then say 'no, that's not what happens'. Your question was about how we think they should be dealt with - the best way is through open war, not a stalemate.

i personally think the best way to beat them is to get the same genetic skills as they have. The humans within this story could do it, (they done many things that the Amnion did not know how to make singularity grenade, and wished to understand Angus' construction, because they could not explain some of the skills he has - they don't have them.) if the people doing such research could go about tampering with the human genetic code unhindered by the small mindedness of most the human race; then I believe that is the only way to stop the Amnion from wiping us out.

Though of course the reality of this wouldn't actually "beat" them. If we tampered with our genetic code and made it uneffected by Amnion mutagens, the Amnion would still exist; but they wouldn't be able to wipe us out anymore.

In their current state of mind, the GCES would almost certainly launch a tactical strike against the Amnion. If only to push them back into Fobidden Space and keep them on the back foot.

The knowledge of genetic imperialism would be too much for most humans to bear and they would strike hard and fast to deny the Amnion the opportunity to further develop their serums, etc.

It seems to me that the Amnion could be quite easily contained if their space-faring capability was destroyed and with superior human production facilities they have much to fear from us.