I think the trick for us as readers is to not have any expectations, to just go with the ride wherever it goes. Will that be easy? No. I have as many as everyone else. We just need to let go of wanting it to turn out one way or another. (cue Zen music...)
Someone should create an icon of SRD looking at us and laughing as he says "You Don't Even Know."
Covenant is Lord Foul
Moderator: dlbpharmd
Yeah, I'm trying not to. Like I said, I was content with the ending I had for 20 years. I (obviously) have a very strong emotional tie to the first six books. I read them (well, ToT and WGW) when they came out and continually returned to them because the story was good. Damn good. It was the first fantasy story I read that genuinely challenged me. It wasn't childish (Xanth), and it held my attention (unlike the LotR books). I've never read a fantasy book more than once. If I was stranded on a desert island with the Tolkien books, I'd use them for kindling before I'd re-read them. I joined this message board not to argue politics, rant about TV, films, or music, but to share my experience and others' about those six books that had stuck with me for so long.
I was thrilled that SRD was returning to my beloved Land, but I was also incredibly skeptical about the proposition of returning two decades later. I've changed dramatically, and it's fair to say that SRD has too. Given Runes, my skepticism remains. I loathe time travel as a tool (meaning time travel to further a story, not stories about time travel), and I was soooooooo disappointed that SRD chose to use it in Runes.
I have hope for the series (I have to), but to me, Runes was not a good read or a good story. With time travel in the mix, I fear for the ultimate conclusion.
I was thrilled that SRD was returning to my beloved Land, but I was also incredibly skeptical about the proposition of returning two decades later. I've changed dramatically, and it's fair to say that SRD has too. Given Runes, my skepticism remains. I loathe time travel as a tool (meaning time travel to further a story, not stories about time travel), and I was soooooooo disappointed that SRD chose to use it in Runes.
I have hope for the series (I have to), but to me, Runes was not a good read or a good story. With time travel in the mix, I fear for the ultimate conclusion.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Not to sound cynical or nihilistic, but let him.
Seriously.
I tried re-reading Runes in October, and I couldn't make it past the first couple of chapters. That's not the case with the first six books.
And I hate to keep repeating this, but so much of Runes feels like a cheat to me. Not just the time travel, but the entire story (such as it is) so far. WGW wrapped the story up perfectly (enough), and I don't think it required any more telling.
The Illearth Stone is back. I actually groaned out loud for that. The Ranyhyn can time travel. Well, that was sort of set up, but....meh. It just seemed like a very convoluted way of getting back into the story.
Now, I totally respect the fact that the story is SRD's, and it's his right to do whatever he wants with his story, but I don't have to like it. Given how much I enjoyed both the first six books and The Gap books, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I have to say that there's also a well-established pattern that stories that are revisited after extended absences generally aren't good.
Seriously.
I tried re-reading Runes in October, and I couldn't make it past the first couple of chapters. That's not the case with the first six books.
And I hate to keep repeating this, but so much of Runes feels like a cheat to me. Not just the time travel, but the entire story (such as it is) so far. WGW wrapped the story up perfectly (enough), and I don't think it required any more telling.
The Illearth Stone is back. I actually groaned out loud for that. The Ranyhyn can time travel. Well, that was sort of set up, but....meh. It just seemed like a very convoluted way of getting back into the story.
Now, I totally respect the fact that the story is SRD's, and it's his right to do whatever he wants with his story, but I don't have to like it. Given how much I enjoyed both the first six books and The Gap books, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I have to say that there's also a well-established pattern that stories that are revisited after extended absences generally aren't good.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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wayfriend
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I wasn't immensely thrilled with Runes either. But I have high expectations for Fatal Revenant.
Simply because SRD has admitted that Runes was not up to his par, while Revenant might very well be his best book ever.
So I have been convinced to withhold a sour judgement for one more book. That one, dare I say, will make or break me.
Then again, I'm not someone who ever had a problem with new work spoiling an older work. I can easily disregard the new work and continue to enjoy the old. If the Final Cs are bad, I just won't think about them.
Simply because SRD has admitted that Runes was not up to his par, while Revenant might very well be his best book ever.
So I have been convinced to withhold a sour judgement for one more book. That one, dare I say, will make or break me.
Then again, I'm not someone who ever had a problem with new work spoiling an older work. I can easily disregard the new work and continue to enjoy the old. If the Final Cs are bad, I just won't think about them.
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That's exactly where I am with this. I'm just.....nervous...that my least favorite sci-fi/fantasy gimmick (time travel) was brought into play. It's like Pandora's Box.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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wayfriend
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Rest easy. If you heard Donaldson at the '07 Fest (and you will in a bit), you would understand that he's not going to play any "tricks" anywhere. Cheap gimmiks undermine any emotional journey, and SRD is all about delivering the emotional journey. He's not going to change.Cail wrote:That's exactly where I am with this. I'm just.....nervous...that my least favorite sci-fi/fantasy gimmick (time travel) was brought into play. It's like Pandora's Box.
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iQuestor
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Yeah SRD did comment (as Dlbpharmd and WF recounted earlier) that you would have a hard time arguing Foul and Covenant were the same people. He also did say there would be no tricks or trick ending where Foul = Covenant.
What he expressly did not say was that Foul wasnt covenant or vice versa -- he did one of those rueful grin thingys and clarified that the ending would not be a trick. If Foul is Covenant then it will be done in such a way as to stay within the bounds of the world he (SRD) created and should make sense and flow with the story.
Physically they cant be, but if we call in that the Land is Covenant's dream then Foul, and everyone else in the Land, also is covenant.
I won't open that up here -- there are threads where we discussed to death whether the Land is real or not...
I wonder if the end of the series will answer that question...?
What he expressly did not say was that Foul wasnt covenant or vice versa -- he did one of those rueful grin thingys and clarified that the ending would not be a trick. If Foul is Covenant then it will be done in such a way as to stay within the bounds of the world he (SRD) created and should make sense and flow with the story.
Physically they cant be, but if we call in that the Land is Covenant's dream then Foul, and everyone else in the Land, also is covenant.
I won't open that up here -- there are threads where we discussed to death whether the Land is real or not...
I wonder if the end of the series will answer that question...?
Becoming Elijah has been released from Calderwood Books!
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Funny, but I don't really care whether or not SRD answers that question. AFAIC, The Land is real (or real enough), and having a concrete answer would diminish the overall story. Like King said about the ending to The Dark Tower books, it's not about the ending, it's about the journey. WGW had an incredibly satisfactory resolution, as did TPtP, and neither book cried out for a sequel or continuation, nor did either book answer that question. Neither needed to. In fact, both books left a pile of things hanging open (like the fact that the Sunbane still existed) that simply didn't matter to me as far as the story's resolution.
I guess what bugs me about Runes (OK, there's a lot of things, but I'll pick one) is that SRD's plot device to return us to The Land wasn't one of the things that I really cared about. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because he's a far better writer than I'll ever be, and because it's his story, and he has a much better handle on what 's important in his constructed world than I do.
But I'm going to be seriously pissed off if there's a definitive answer as to The Land's reality at the end of the final book, because (to me anyway) that will lessen the impact of the story and drastically change the message that I've taken from it.
Edit-Let me make an analogy. When I got towards the end of The Dark Tower, I was in tears and could not tear myself away from the pages. I reached the end, and I was satisfied. King ended the story the way it had to end, and I think it's one of the best 'epic story endings' I've either read or seen. Then I foolishly read the Coda, and immediately wished I hadn't. It was a cheat, it didn't fit with anything that had come before, and it negated so much of what was good about the story. It was like the network television ending, and it flat-out sucked.
Similarly, if Donaldson answers the real/dream question (or God forbid has TC and Linden living happily ever after in either world), then there goes everything he's written from the fundamental question of ethics on.
I guess what bugs me about Runes (OK, there's a lot of things, but I'll pick one) is that SRD's plot device to return us to The Land wasn't one of the things that I really cared about. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because he's a far better writer than I'll ever be, and because it's his story, and he has a much better handle on what 's important in his constructed world than I do.
But I'm going to be seriously pissed off if there's a definitive answer as to The Land's reality at the end of the final book, because (to me anyway) that will lessen the impact of the story and drastically change the message that I've taken from it.
Edit-Let me make an analogy. When I got towards the end of The Dark Tower, I was in tears and could not tear myself away from the pages. I reached the end, and I was satisfied. King ended the story the way it had to end, and I think it's one of the best 'epic story endings' I've either read or seen. Then I foolishly read the Coda, and immediately wished I hadn't. It was a cheat, it didn't fit with anything that had come before, and it negated so much of what was good about the story. It was like the network television ending, and it flat-out sucked.
Similarly, if Donaldson answers the real/dream question (or God forbid has TC and Linden living happily ever after in either world), then there goes everything he's written from the fundamental question of ethics on.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
It's interesting, but your feelings are exactly the same as those of the Ranyhyn in Runes (which as someone pointed out is like the Lords in the first trilogy)... it's almost like at some level, SRD has cast them into a role that mirrors our feelings. SRD may 'save or damn' the series, but your beliefs require you to hope that he will pull it off. I can relate, so do mine. Although I love Runes, so at this point I'm less worried about it.Cail wrote:I have hope for the series (I have to)...
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon
I have issues with Runes, basically because the book just confuses the hell out of me. Even with Dissecting, I'm still sitting here scratching my head. But there are portions of the book that are absolutely beautiful, and like Cail said it doesn't matter to me whether the Land is "real" or not, it's real to me.
Based on what I've heard from friends about FR, I can't wait to read it!
Based on what I've heard from friends about FR, I can't wait to read it!
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High Lord Tolkien
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It matters to me if the "real or not real" premise is explained.
Not having the clear answer wouldn't ruin it for me but I want it.
Not having the clear answer wouldn't ruin it for me but I want it.
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
No offense HLT, but why would you want it? I already know the answer, and I suspect you (and everyone else) has it too. I almost hate to say this, but I don't want to know what SRD's opinion is. I've been in The Land for 26(?) years, and I know good and damn well that it's real, regardless of what SRD thinks.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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High Lord Tolkien
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That makes no sense to me.Cail wrote:I've been in The Land for 26(?) years, and I know good and damn well that it's real, regardless of what SRD thinks.
You're claiming to know more about the story before it's finished than person who is writing the story?
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
No, I'm claiming that the author's intent on the reality or unreality of The Land isn't important to me.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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I'm Murrin
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I agree a lot with what Cail said and with dlb. Runes confused the heck out of me, too. It didn't have the same effortless flow as the previous Covenant books. Anything involving time travel gives me headaches.
I don't know. I just want to get my hands on FR so that SRD can - maybe - finally explain just what the hell's going on in the Land.
I don't know. I just want to get my hands on FR so that SRD can - maybe - finally explain just what the hell's going on in the Land.
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wayfriend
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The Land has no tangible, verifiable "reality," not even to Covenant and Linden. Yet they--and I--and many of my readers--assign importance/value to the Land. Isn't it therefore "real" precisely because we make it so? And isn't that really the position at which Covenant himself arrives at the end of "The Power that Preserves"?
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