Covenant is Lord Foul

[High Lord Tolkien]

The Land has no tangible, verifiable "reality," not even to Covenant and Linden. Yet they--and I--and many of my readers--assign importance/value to the Land. Isn't it therefore "real" precisely because we make it so? And isn't that really the position at which Covenant himself arrives at the end of "The Power that Preserves"?

Well then, Santa and the Easter Bunny are going to be happy about that.
I'm not.
Mainly because SRD made the Land's existence a question using the main character TC himself.
SRD introduced the question himself and because he did I think he needs to answer it.
In Mordent's Need there was never a question of unreality beyond Terisa's initial wtf moment.
There wasn't a central theme on unreality asked over and over again.

SRD has balanced the real vs unreal aspect of the Land quite well and up until Runes I felt he gave me enough to satisfy both answers (barely).

I want a final answer.

[Cagliostro]

I found it a little difficult getting into Runes, and must say that I definitely need another read to try to get it a bit more. Then again, maybe after finishing the last book will I fully get into the story. Same thing happened with the Gap books. Lots I didn't follow until I read the series back to back after it had been finished for a few years. And saw how all the threads came together.

And about the Gap books, didn't he say that The Real Story was something he wrote but thought it wasn't very good. Maybe unlike Stephen King, who doesn't know how to end books and uses the cop-out "it's about the journey," SRD doesn't know how to start a book. I do love several of Stephen King's work, but I come to expect it won't wrap up well. While Donaldson's work seems like the ending often makes the buildup glisten a bit more. So I have faith that he'll finish this well. And that there'll be some great points of interest on the trip.

[Cail]

See, I agree completely with King. The ending is important, but not nearly as important as how you get there.

Like I said, I thought the Dark Tower ending was perfect, and don't see any other way it could've ended.

[NightBlaze]

I dont think any of us are in a hurry to get to the end, so it will be interesting when we get there. I'm just glad it wont have that "Harry Potter" ending. That would have been a MAJOR killjoy.

[Usivius]

personally I never gave the notion of "is the Land real or not" any thought at all.
It is real.
The people who live there carry on normal lives outside the conscious of TC and Linden and Troy and anyone else we have had a POV with.

The unreality of it was a means of TC shunning responsibility (and other things), but I honestly don't think SRD has to say in the book, "OK, the Land is real"...

[Avatar]

In Mordent's Need there was never a question of unreality beyond Terisa's initial wtf moment.
There wasn't a central theme on unreality asked over and over again.

I dunno, the question in MN is whether Teresa is real, not Mordant. Although her unreality is admittedly not given much credence, it is remarked upon repeatedly.

--A

[matrixman]

My recent post here criticizing the book might seem inconsistent with my stand, since I've been quick to defend Runes before. I think it's just my impatience for FR showing. I'm at the end of my rope, Mr. D. Give me the frickin' book already.

[wayfriend]

A topical "Land Reality" question comes up in the GI today.

Matthew Verdier: [...] lso, in thinking about your answer, in effect not trying to give away if the land is real or not in your eyes, I thought about that issue a bit more. By the time I finished reading the first six books, I personally had come to the conclusion the Land is real. I understand my decision to believe this has no bearing on anyone else, your intents(if any) when you wrote the books and I understand the paradox of believing both is important to Covenant as a character.

My thinking is that Hile Troy, Linden and the old man indicate to me that the Land is real (the irony of that- debating the "reality" of a fictional place). Troy being able to see in the Land should not be possible without it being real. He had no intellectual referent to imagine the sense of sight in a delusion. Linden being able to use health sense in the "real" world at the end of TOT. The old man not being involved in some way with the Land is too big of a coincidence; that a crazy old man shows up just before each of the delusions Covenant and Linden experience. I personally don't buy into shared unconsciousness. Common archetypes in dreams is one thing, multiple people dreaming the same dream with the scope of the Land is beyond what I am willing to believe. These are my reasons for believing in the reality of the land, and I know that doesn't mean everyone will (or should).

Hmm, again, those aren't questions, but statements of what I believe. [...]

Matt

• I accept your reasoning for what it is: your reasoning. As you clearly understand--and accept--other people may think differently. As far as I'm concerned, this is as it should be: we all have to make up our own minds about the meaning of, well, practically everything. From my perspective (which is only relevant because it tends to be reflected in Covenant and Linden), the important thing about the whole "Is the Land real/unreal?" question is that it doesn't really matter. I like to think that my story--and my characters--have moved beyond such considerations. (Which is why the issue disappears from the text so early in "The Second Chronicles".) [...]
  
  (06/21/2007)

Personally, I think that Matt is missing an important point. Which is that Covenant's "real world" is not the same as our real world, in that it has a touch of magic to it that ours doesn't. That is, in Covenant's real world, it is possible for Covenant to go somehow to a place called the Land; I hope everyone recognizes that in our real world that's not possible. Donaldson writes about Covenant's real world with enough ... ok, realism, so that we can suspend disbelief and believe it is our real world, and that it could really happen. But it can't really happen, it's not our real world. And once you understand that things happen in Covenant's real world that are impossible in our real world, then there's no limit to what those impossible things might be. People could share dreams; blind people can imagining sight; crazy old men can know stuff: these things are just as possible in Covenant's real world as Covenant going to the Land. All Donaldson needs to do is treat these things with enough ambiguity that our sense of disbelief is maintained, so that we never feel that Covenant's real world isn't ours while we read.

[Zarathustra]

Personally, I think that Matt is missing an important point. Which is that Covenant's "real world" is not the same as our real world, in that it has a touch of magic to it that ours doesn't. That is, in Covenant's real world, it is possible for Covenant to go somehow to a place called the Land; I hope everyone recognizes that in our real world that's not possible.

But that assumes the Land is real, which defeats the purpose of keeping it ambiguous. People go crazy in our world all the time. They have hallucinations. They have dreams. These are not magical occurrences. Going to the Land is only magical if the Land is a real place.

Certainly Covenant's "real world" is not the same as ours. But it's not because it has a "touch of magic." It's because it isn't real. It's a work of fiction.

And once you understand that things happen in Covenant's real world that are impossible in our real world, then there's no limit to what those impossible things might be. People could share dreams; blind people can imagining sight; crazy old men can know stuff: these things are just as possible in Covenant's real world as Covenant going to the Land. All Donaldson needs to do is treat these things with enough ambiguity that our sense of disbelief is maintained, so that we never feel that Covenant's real world isn't ours while we read.

I don't think SRD would agree that there's no limit to impossible things happening in Covenant's real world. If that were the case, then there would be no distinction between the Land and TC's world. And if there's no difference, then it's impossible for SRD to maintain the ambiguity of the Land's reality. It would necessarily have to be as real as Covenant's world.

In fact, I don't think any "impossible" things happen in Covenant's world at all. For instance, I don't think that Covenant and Linden sharing their experiences of the Land is supposed to be magical. Again, if that's the case, then that's no different from the the Land being real. If Covenant already lives in a world where people magically share adventures in their dreams, then as you say, there's no limit to the impossible things that can happen. So why would Covenant ever doubt anything? How could he be an Unbeliever in a world that already has magic? If he accepts that they can only share this "dream" with the help of magic, then believing that is just as much a leap as believing the Land is real--so why not go one step further and accept the Land, too? I really see no difference between accepting a magical dream world we can magically share, and accepting a magical Land we can magically visit. What's the difference?

No, I think this sharing is metaphorical, not magical. It is symbolic of how we all share this world. First, we all participate in an inter-subjective holographic representation of reality--our perceptions. And secondly, we all share a common heritage of mythic archetypes. Thirdly, we all have our own inner Despiser which we must battle.

[Ur Dead]

An effect that may prove the Land real is in PTP. At the end. TC is dying from a reaction to the antivenom. The creator knew it, told TC and TC chose to be clense of the deadly effects. The real world doctors knew he was dying and couldn't understand why he turned for the better.

Another, TWL , why did Linden come with him and share the same experience. If he was dreaming all of it then wouldn't he be dreaming his world was fantasy. And reality does not exist for him?

Why would SRD write sections of WGW after Covenant died and show the after effects.

Why in Runes would SRD dwell on about 10 years of Linden"real life"

Is TC really dreaming all of it while dying in a emergency ward after being struck by a car? in LFB.

But this is my prespective of SRD world, like Tolkien had his own world.. I beleive that The Land is as real as Tolkiens's Middle Earth.

[wayfriend]

An effect that may prove the Land real is in PTP. At the end. TC is dying from a reaction to the antivenom. The creator knew it, told TC and TC chose to be clense of the deadly effects. The real world doctors knew he was dying and couldn't understand why he turned for the better.

I don't disagree ... but that strikes me as another example of how Covenant's "real world" isn't quite the same as ours.

"Thomas Covenant-hear me." The voice breathed compassion at him. "I can give you life. In this time of need, I can provide to your stricken flesh the strength it requires to endure."

"I'd rather survive," he murmured dimly. "I don't want to die like that."

The voice smiled. "It is done. You will live."

....

"I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it," the man said. "That poor devil is going to live."

Covenant's real world is filled with small magics such as this.

Yes, you can choose to believe that the Creator did nothing, he is imaginary, Covenant survived because he survived. But that's a rather harsh disservice to the story, isn't it? But this gift is apropos ... there is poetic justice and drama and closure in it ... you want to believe that Covenant was gifted with his life for what he had done. That he really did have a choice to stay in the Land. And that he really demonstrated his principle-bound character, and his personal growth, by gently refusing the offer.

So I say Covenant's real world is magic. You can't use our real world as a guide for what can and cannot happen, in order to prove the Land is real.

That doesn't mean anything is possible. Covenant's real world is supposed to look and feel and seem like our world. Donaldson is limited by what we would accept. But he has this power: we need to believe Covenant's real world is ours. But we also need to believe that small magics are really possible. They are the stuff of stories.

[High Lord Tolkien]

But this is my prespective of SRD world, like Tolkien had his own world.. I beleive that The Land is as real as Tolkiens's Middle Earth.

To me it's not.
Tolkien wrote about ME as a prehistory of the actual world.
It's "real" because that's the way it was written.

The Land-verse on the other hand.......
All of your questions could be answered by having TC dreaming it all.
Linden doesn't have to be a second person.
I bet SRD gave this secret away when TC told Troy that he was just something that TC made up to argue with.
You are assuming at what point he starts dreaming.
You are assuming that he falls asleep and wakes up at the beginning and end of each of the books (or once in the beginning in the case of the 2nd chronicles)
It could be from a point before the books begin or from the end of the 3rd Chrons.
It could all be one all encompassing dream.
As the dreamer TC is the Creator and the Despiser.
As the dreamer The Land is a reflection of TC.
Every character is a portion of himself or a dram like reflection of his real world experience.
And as his dream evolves so does he.
That's why he stopped fighting Foul and moved on to accepting him.
We just don't know how all the characters we've seen so far match up with something in TC's life.
(Linden is clearly TC's whine-like-a-bitch aspect )


But it does seem that SRD has stepped away from the dream premise though.
But he's a tricky bastard I hear.

[emotional leper]

There's also the option of believing that Covenant pulled through the adverse reaction to the Anti-venin on his own, and that the conversation with the creator was just a part of his 'delusion' his subconcious mind came up with based on information it was recieving during the event to explain to him what was going on.

But that would be if one assumed that the land was inside his head.

[Kerb]

I am seriously trying to wrap my head round this!

But I think that Lord Foul is Thomas Covenant's shadow, so we can expect some serious shadow dancing.

And Joan is TC's anima...

The Land is real as far as TC is in it. I only hope that it doesn't have a Dark Tower type of ending, nor an Alice in Wonderland type of ending.

It seems to me that there is much to be resolved.

There is more that I think it is, but I may be wrong, and there are many erudite readers here.

And I have yet to read "Fatal Revenant" and the rest of the Last Chronicle, and go with the story, and understand more deeply the tale.

[fleshharrower]

The problem is that I was perfectly content with the way the series ended for the last 20-odd years. No, I wasn't thrilled with the way WGW ended, but it made sense within the context of the story. Given my feelings towards Runes, I don't have a whole lot of hope for the next three books. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm amazed. I hope I'm reduced to tears.

I gave SRD Runes - I didn't particular like it I found the reading laborious. He had 4 books to come, so I let him have that one as a setup for the finale. But I'm now halfway through FR, and I don't know... I just don't get the same *feeling* that I did from the earlier books.

Has the writing style changed? It's just not magical like it used to be.

I too was content with the series ending with WGW.

What bothers me is that SRD has proclaimed FR to be his best writing ever... I disagree, but am I alone?

===edit===

But I'm going to be seriously pissed off if there's a definitive answer as to The Land's reality at the end of the final book, because (to me anyway) that will lessen the impact of the story and drastically change the message that I've taken from it.

FR

Spoiler

Do you find that SRD is supplying *definitive answers* to a lot of things in FR? It does explain certain things, like the long-winded name for the Haruchai guardian, when all of their names are short - but, what those *definitive answers* do is kill the mystery and the imagination that our own minds have conjured to answer those questions...

Isn't the power of a good story-teller to leave certain things open-ended and let the reader make up their own mind?

I bet SRD gave this secret away when TC told Troy that he was just something that TC made up to argue with.

Linden doesn't have to be a second person.

These are also interesting points. TC could've invented Troy to argue with, and he could also have invented Linden to fall-in-love with. For aren't we told that Linden is *comely*, and TC is going through a nasty time with Joan - men have their needs

[Atrium]

Are you not splitting hairs here? I think Donaldson left the theme of Unbelief behind a long way back. It was a major issue in the first trilogy, when Covenants unbelief dictated his every action and made him into a chaotic, unpredictable mover of the story. But in the end of TPTP he reconciles his conflicting emotions about the land; he cannot be sure that its real, but even beautiful dreams are worth fighting for.

In the second trilogy the theme of the lands realness is already passé. Both Covenant and Linden accepts whatever comes their way, and are to busy from chapter one trying to survive in this dangerous new world to delve deep into metaphysics.

Its also interesting to note that from the second trilogy and forward there is never any doubts about where Covenant and Lindens allegiances lie. In the first trilogy the Lords worry a great deal about Covenant ultimately damning the land by siding with Foul. In the second, Covenant, and through him Linden, becomes the lands last defenders. Mainly because they readily accepts the lands realness, on some level.


And furthermore; if we examine the idea of the land only existing in someones head, that boat just does not float.

If the land existed in Covenants head, it would cease to exist in the introduction to TWL, when Covenant gets shot dead in the "real world". And even if you somehow find your way around that problem, our heroe finally gets it in the land also, at the end of the second trilogy. How could the land continue existing after that?

Linden enters the story in book 4, having had no previous contacts with the protagonists before. I think we can safely exclude the idea of the land existing only in her head.
Joan on the other hand is of course mentioned in the first three books, but plays a tiny part of the story there, as she does in the later books (so far). It would be very unlike Donaldson to resort to the cheap trick of letting us know at the end of the long story that; "tadaaa!!! Fooled you all didnt i? It was all only a dream dreamt by one of the minor assisting characters."

No, i think Donaldson is cooking up some great surprise here. Certainly the land is metaphysically connected with its otherworldy saviours on SOME level. We have got enough hints already about Covenant and Foul being different sides to the same coin. But its not going to be anything quite as predictable as the land being only a dream in the protagonists head. I can almost see him rubbing his hands together and smirking about future revelations to come. (If we can see anything about what he picked up in the 20 years preparing himself to be a better writer its that the new and improved Donaldson is even more fond of keeping us in the dark, slipping us some hints that are desperately unsatisfying, and making us beg for more. Which is why, incidentally, i didnt like "Runes..." all that much. Too much hinting, not much happening.)

[wayfriend]

What I see in the Final Chronicles is all the different levels of "Covenant is Lord Foul" coming together. In the First Chronicles, Foul is the dark side of Covenant in a literary sense. In the Second Chronicles, Foul is the dark side of Covenant in a spiritual sense. In the Final Chronicles, Foul will be Covenant in a real sense.

In accelerating frenzy, [Foul] flung rage and defiance and immitigable hate at Covenant. Yet each failed blow cost him more of himself. His substance frayed and thinned ... Blast after blast, [Covenant] absorbed the power of Despite and fire and became stronger.

In the first Chronicles, the reality of the Land was a dire question. In the Second Chronicles, it was an unnecessary question. In the Final Chronicles, it is not even a question any more: Covenant only exists in the Land now, the Land is his reality, he has no other.

These two trends go hand in hand. The former could not happen without the latter.

In the first Chronicles, the conflict was physical, armies and wars. Victory was through combat. In the second Chronicles, it was spiritual, venom and subane. Victory was through sacrifice. In the final Chronicles, the conflict between Covenant and Foul is the ultimate in personal conflicts - they are the same self. Victory is through ... acceptance? That we must see.

I see The Land as being the reflection of an internal struggle. I think that's what Fantasy is: turning an internal struggle inside out, and dramatizing it as if it were external. The two stories together are a kind of moral hierarchy: the first one is relatively simple concerned with muscle; the second is a test of sacrifice in relationships - Covenant can't save The Land alone in The Second Chronicles , and neither can Linden Avery. It takes what they can both give, and what they can both give up, to save The Land. I believe there is another test that which if I ever get to it I will try to explore: I guess superficially you might call it the test of acceptance, but it's a sequence: you can't get to the second stage unless you have done the first. That's how I look at it.

[Atrium]

I agree, i think the story is gong that direction. But the exact way that Donaldson plans to wrap this up is beyond me. If the key is acceptance, whos acceptance? Covenant accepted Foul as his dark half already in the second trilogy. Is it Linden that needs to learn acceptance? Or maybe Foul himself? I remember Donaldson commenting that we would learn a lot more about Foul this time. Maybe mr Despiser needs to understand that he can never escape his prison by being bad?

[zmulls]

No, Covenant == Foul is not the surprise ending I'm dreading. That would be too much of a cliche (and would be the ending to THE PRISONER all over again.

....I'm more concerned that with the time wrap-arounds, it's going to transpire that Jeremiah is really the young Covenant......I don't *think* that's possible to work out, though....

[Prebe]

I think the thing about time travel is not to let it spoil your reading enjoyment. When dissected, no time travel ploy holds up to examination. I had some problems with Runes in this regard, and I am determined not to let it destroy my enjoyment of FR. So far I am having no trouble going with the flow. I am halfway through FR, and I find that letting down my guard really does it for me. I mean, let's be honest: it's called Fantasy for a reason.

Edit: On second thought, I can see the fun in talking about the paradoxes of time travel, even in books that you really love. However, I think I will leave it untill the fifth reading or something like that