Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:43 am**

Just because it isn't true, it doesn't mean you shouldn't believe it.

The Esmer

Good? Bad? How or why? Many questions can be drawn from this basic premise: Why is a lie sometimes necessary to find the truth?

For a fictional example, of many, we may all be able to relate to, I will use Neo, from The Matrix. The Oracle, a "truthteller", told Neo he wasn't The One. Later we find out he is The One, and that the Oracle had lied to him, knowing all along he was, and that telling him he was The One may have prevented him from becoming The One. What this shows is that a basic human component of needing to be lied to to find out the truth, about ourselves, and everything else. Why is this? And where and when is this appropriate, where lying is necessary not only to hide the truth, but to find it. Any thoughts?

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:58 am**

Actually, she didn't tell him he wasn't the One.

He thought that was was what she was going to tell him, but all she said was, IIRC, "You already know what I'm going to tell you." The Oracle never lied to him. She allowed him to run with his own misconception, that's all.

I'll have to think further about the question, but for now, I'll add two quotes of my own:

Malaclypse The Younger wrote:Do not disregard my teachings beacuase I am crazy. I am crazy because they are True.

Pablo Picasso wrote:Art is a lie which makes us realise the Truth.

--Avatar

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:41 pm**

Morpheus takes Neo to the Oracle, who appears to be a 50-year old Black woman and has the power of foresight. She reviews Neo and tells him that he has the "gift", but appeared to be waiting for something—"Your next life, maybe." Neo infers incorrectly that the Oracle has said that he is not the One. The Oracle warns him that an event will come where he will have to choose between his own life or that of Morpheus, and that one of them will die.

Oracle: OK, now I'm supposed to say, "Hmm, that's interesting, but..." then you say...
Neo: ..."but what?"
Oracle: But... you already know what I'm going to tell you.
Neo: I'm not The One.
Oracle: Sorry, kid. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
Neo: What?
Oracle: Your next life, maybe. Who knows? That's the way these things go.

She herself claims that she lacks the ability to see past her own choice, explaining that choices are not understood by the person who makes them.

Morpheus: "She told you exactly what you needed to hear, that's all. Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize, just as I did, there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."

inferred? hmmmm. Any connotations to "next life", as in next stage of his current life? hmmmm. Also, it was thru saving Morpheus (neither died), (was she merely pointing the way to the truth?), that he was able to "discover" he was The One. Was his "self-discovery" and consequent "re-birth" the "death" she was referring to?

www.answers.com/topic/neo-matrix-character

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oracle_%28Matrix_character%29&redirect=no

For a movie "for kids" (heh), there seems to be a whole lot of "adult oriented" philosophical references.

Any examples of this in TCTC?

>
www.inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=427_0_1_0_C&NF=1

As Henry Miller always admonished and Don Juan Matus affirmed, you have to lose your reason in order to get in touch with that part of you that you don't even believe exists.
Dominick Mastroserio

(gotta love Vonnegut)

It must be kind of spooky to be a student or teacher in a university as great as this one, with its libraries and laboratories and lecture halls, while knowing it is within the borders of a nation where wisdom, reason, knowledge and truth no longer apply.

I realize that some of you may have come in hopes of hearing tips on how to become a professional writer. I say to you, “If you really want to hurt your parents, and you don’t have the nerve to be a homosexual, the least you can do is go into the arts. But do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites, standing for absolutely nothing. All they do is show you’ve been to college.”

But actually, to practice any art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow. So do it. Dance on your way out of here. Sing on your way out of here. Write a love poem when you get home. Draw a picture of your bed or roommate.

And hey, listen: A sappy woman sent me a letter a few years back. She knew I was sappy, too, which is to say a lifelong northern Democrat in the Franklin Delano Roosevelt mode, a friend of the working stiffs. She was about to have a baby, not mine, and wished to know if it was a bad thing to bring such a sweet and innocent creature into a world as bad as this one is. I replied that what made being alive almost worthwhile for me, besides music, was all the saints I met, who could be anywhere. By saints I meant people who behaved decently in a strikingly indecent society. Perhaps some of you are or will become saints for her child to meet.

"...and the saints, go marching in..."

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:50 pm**

es said kurt said

But do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites, standing for absolutely nothing. All they do is show you’ve been to college.”

HA! i love kurt vonnegut!!! and i had just learned how to successfully USE those dang things!!!

(oops, hadda edit out mis-spelled naughty word!!)

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:53 pm**

transvestite hermaphrodites...in college...

wouldn't you call that an "oxnardmoron"? Or a "eunuchphemism"?

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:16 pm**

Out with the mortarboard in with the semicolon!

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:34 pm**

is "semicolon" code for "bisexual"?

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:36 pm**

LOL, No The Esmer. It's a commercial for Big Dick's Halfway Inn

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:38 pm**

(thanx, I now have to clean "smoker's phlegm" off my monitor......)

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:57 pm**

i so was NOT derailing the topic!!!

(that Prebe guy is FUNNY, iddn't he!!)

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:18 pm**

can anyone help me add a Poll to this topic? (i voted for Syl, heh.

)

(Any examples of this "motivational" behavior in TCTC?)

(we would love to hear your thoughts on this subject, Lucimay!

, and yes, Prebe is VERY funny, for not being American, that is, heh.

)

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:53 am**

She still didn't tell him that he wasn't the One, did she?

And that "sorry" could be read as a negation of what he thought she was going to tell him.

I'm not in favour of lies in general. Small deliberate lies of explanation to aid understanding, sure, as long as they're explicitly tagged as such. Maybe somebody can help me out here with a quote...

...read somewhere a story where the guy is always saying, "This is a lie, but it's a lie that you can understand."

In other words, it's not actually how it works/is, but its the closest you can get to knowing for now.

Big difference betwen that, and a lie of deliberate deception, (i.e. to create an untrue reality for a person) which is what I tend to think of lies as being.

--A

(Oh yeah, you should be able to go back and edit the first post in this topic (your post, as you started it), to add the poll.)

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:13 pm**

In Zindell's Neverness books, the Fravashi have a word, langsahm (I think; danlo or fist could verify this for me). As I remember it, it describes something said which causes pain (can't remember if it's a lie or what) that brings someone to an understanding of the truth. The Fravashi are quite the sadists when it comes to that.

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 pm**

Yeah, the holy pain or something. I loved that concept.

--A

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:05 pm**

langsahm means "Slow" in german.

Posted: **Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:42 pm**

It's possible I have the word mixed up, since I did take two years of German. That, or I never noticed the similarity.

Posted: **Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:12 am**

Syl wrote:In Zindell's Neverness books, the Fravashi have a word, langsahm (I think; danlo or fist could verify this for me). As I remember it, it describes something said which causes pain (can't remember if it's a lie or what) that brings someone to an understanding of the truth.

Can't confirm the name, (I've just read it, and still can't remember) but IIRC, it wasn't a lie to cause pain, it was the truth that did it. Will have to look it up though...

--A

Posted: **Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:30 am**

Bright Shining Lies, Blistering Truth

Lies, misperceptions and fabrications make great history, great plays and great country songs. Both the Bible and Shakespeare feature the ramifications of this type of evil. And who can’t sing along with Reba McEntire every word of Bobby Russell’s "The Night the Lights Went out in Georgia?"

From the first whispers of the Serpent in the Garden to our belligerent born-again President proclaiming glory behind a cheap banner on an expensive ship, we have been transfixed by evil and misrepresentation.

A preoccupation with the lies, however, can blind us to the truths of this administration.

www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski49.html

I didn't mean to go here, was just googling "lies to truth" and found this. It's from a recently retired USAF lieutenant colonel, Karen Kwiatkowski who spent her final four and a half years in uniform working at the Pentagon. That should qualify it as a "valid perspective", insofar as we don't know whats in her "personnel file".

I suppose it was inevitable it would lead to this, but I do hope we don't remain on the topic of Bush, and eventually continue with the thread as properly led by this discussion.

That second part intrigues me, "A preoccupation with the lies, however, can blind us to the truths...".

Posted: **Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:13 am**

People shouldn't be protected too much, is what it comes down to for me, which is the only real justification for lies that are not self-serving (and which are often about protecting yourself anyway).

The truth is often painful or unpleasant...but that doesn't mean it should be sugar-coated, or outright withdrawn.

Truth is always better.

--A

Posted: **Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:47 am**

Like in: "Darling, do I look fat in this?"

Kevin's Watch

Telling Lies To Find Truth

Telling Lies To Find Truth