A Feast for Crows - Spoiler topic

[I'm Murrin]

The book's out, a few of us are reading it already, so here's a topic to discuss things about it in more detail, and to keep the spoilers away from the rest of the forum. I'll be back to post in here once I've finished the book (probably tomorrow).

[I'm Murrin]

Still not finished, but read far enough to make a small comment. Martin has handed us yet a nother prophecy to deal with, and this one concerns Queen Cersei's fate.

Spoiler

Apparently 'the valonqar' will kill her, after she has seen her three children crowned and killed. After much obfuscation Martin reveals that 'valonqar' means little brother - and because Cersei believes this to mean Tyrion, I can't possibly think she's right. Unless the prophecy was meant less literally than is supposed, only one possibility comes to mind (because both Aegon and Jon are Dany's elder brothers, so it cannot be a Targaryen (though I think the 'younger and more beautiful' queen is probably Daenerys)) - and that is Rickon Stark.

[I'm Murrin]

Finished! Here're my comments.

Cersei and the Sparrows:

Spoiler

Stupid. Very, very stupid. Allowing the High Sparrow to reform the Swords and Stars was the worst thing she could possibly have done, and she's certainly paying for it. At this rate half the kingdom will end up facing the Faith's justice. Yet another big event that no-one predicted - but then, how could we possibly have predicted it - Martin never even hinted that the Faith had once had a military branch.

Jaime:

Spoiler

Saw his sister's folly easily enough, but couldn't disobey his orders - but perhaps that's for the best. With Cersei imprisoned Kevan is likely to return and assume the regency, which is probably the best thing that could happen, but if Jaime was in King's Landing he would have to fight for her at the trial, and he could never win, he's not ready to fight. Leaving Cersei to her fate may seem cruel, but she'll get what she deserves. Then Jaime can return, and help Tommen become a real king.

Sansa:

Spoiler

Finally her brain makes an appearance. I think with Littlefinger's help she's finally showing her intelligence, though this plot of his seems dangerous. He intends to marry her once the Imp is dead, and to reveal her name at the wedding - but the Imp won't die any time soon, so I don't see how that will happen. Once she has the Vale on her side, what then? The Freys hold the Neck, the Ironmen have Moat Cailin, the Bastard of Bolton has most of the Northmen on his side, and Stannis is on the Wall. If the northmen rally to her banners, she still has Ramsey and Stannis to deal with.

Arya:

Spoiler

Seems she's becoming quite the little cutthroat. The kindly man seems disappointed whenever she shows her true self, and I don't think she even knows why she's doing this. I can't tell if she'll go all the way with it - she doesn't seem capable of giving up her old self. And it wouldn't make a good story if Arya was finally gone, and abandoned all her emotional ties to Westeros. Hiding Needle may be a sign that she'll never truly leave her identity behind, but she could always go back and rid herself of it - I expect the kindly man knows she hid it. As for that last line... I suspect a temporary blindness from one of the poisons, as punishment for what she did to Daveon.

Brienne:

Spoiler

Can't be dead. If the word she shouted was Jaime, I'll be sorely disappointed. If Brienne is not cut down, then her story served no purpose but to tell us the fate of Sandor Clegane, and I can't believe that would be the only reason for it.

Daenerys:

Spoiler

Seems she'll be gathering quite a crowd when we see her. Tyrion is on his way, Prince Doran has snet his son Quentyn, and Archmaester Marwyn the Mage has hopped the first ship over there. Looking forward to seeing what happens.

Edit (rather than quadruple-post, which I think'd be going too far):

Spoiler

I was trying to puzzle a couple of things out, and had some interesting thoughts. First, I was thinking this: If Brienne is dead, why did Martin tell her story? The only answer I can come up with is the Hound. Brienne's story is the one that tells us what happened to Clegane - the Elder Brother tells her the he found him near Saltpans, and the the Hound died in his arms. That led to another question: How could the Hound have died, when his story wasn't complete? The Hound was a tormented soul, and before his story could end he had to find peace. That's when a few things clicked together in my mind, and I had to go back and look at that chapter again. The Elder Brother, I'd thought straight away, knew too much about Clegane for the short time he spent with him. When he spoke to Brienne he says "the man you are looking for is dead". He talks about 'this man Sandor Clegane' at length, then finally: 'The Hound died there, in my arms'. However, Brienne then says, "Sandor Clegane is dead", and the Elder Brother replies, "He is at rest."
These little things I noticed after my realisation. It had stuck in my mind that Sandor couldn't have died, but I couldn't work out where he could have went instead, until I remembered something else about Brienne's visit to the Quiet Isle - the (very large, and lame in one leg) gravedigger. I knew the truth instantly, and reading the passages again only confirmed it. Martin evens drops a little clue, when the novice stops to pet Dog.
The Elder Brother says "the man she is looking for" is dead, and "the Hound" is dead, but he says that Sandor Clegane is at rest.
It seems Sandor Clegane's story is complete, because he is finally at rest - and the Hound is dead and buried.

[OsRavan]

ok thos whole post is spoilers so dont read here if you dont want them

Spoiler

1) the hound is prob *not* dead. or rather sandor clegane is not dead. go back and read about the limpign grave digger.

on another note i think jaime is the one in cercie's prohpecy. after all he is younger too.

on a side note did you pick up that the sphinx is really a sand snake?

or frrankenmountain? heh

also my personal theory on dallas child was proved correct

[Revan]

Spoiler

I also jumped to the conclusion that it might just be Jaime who fulfills the prophecy. But what could provoke him to such an extreme, do you think?

And do not forget, Cersei's two children have to die and Dany take all she has before it can be fulfilled.

[OsRavan]

not who. what. he knows shes been cheating on him. look at his reaction when he gets the news shes in trouble

[Revan]

There's a large line to leaving someone to there fate, and killing them with your bare hand(s). He knows she's been cheating on him, but I don't think that the new Jaime would straggle her for that.

[Roland of Gilead]

Great and detailed post, Murrin.

The only other thing I would mention is with regard to Daenerys, another person is coming her way, too. Valyrion, brother of Euron Crow's Eye, to abduct her for the Iron Isles.

[duchess of malfi]

Still not finished, but read far enough to make a small comment. Martin has handed us yet a nother prophecy to deal with, and this one concerns Queen Cersei's fate.

Spoiler

Apparently 'the valonqar' will kill her, after she has seen her three children crowned and killed. After much obfuscation Martin reveals that 'valonqar' means little brother - and because Cersei believes this to mean Tyrion, I can't possibly think she's right. Unless the prophecy was meant less literally than is supposed, only one possibility comes to mind (because both Aegon and Jon are Dany's elder brothers, so it cannot be a Targaryen (though I think the 'younger and more beautiful' queen is probably Daenerys)) - and that is Rickon Stark.

Spoiler

I agree that the younger Queen is probably Dany, though it might be the Tyrell girl, if Cersei comes to destroy herself through her paranoia.

Possibilities:
Jeyne Westerling, Robb's Queen of the North -- not likely, but there is a possible connection between Jeyne and the magi who foretold Cercei's future -- there is a slight possibility that the magi is her mother's grandmother(?), well ancestor anyway

Margaery Tyrell - we'll have to see what happens with the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, but it is possible that Cersei might have/will have comitted a weird self-destruction with her paranoia towards Margaery

Myrcella - Queen of Westeros by Dornish rules; not very likely but always an outside possibility; the prophecy does say Myrcella will wear a crown before her death

Asha - by usual inheritance rules, could be seen as the Queen of the Iron Islands; I don't see how she could pull down Cersei, though

Dany -- most likely possibility, and the more likely because Cersei is blowing off any and all Dany/dragons news people are trying to give her

Sansa -- as oldest known surviving legitamate Stark (everyone thinks the boys are dead), could she be seen as a Queen of the North?

I think the little brother will turn out to be Cercei's other younger brother - Jaime. She is too focused on Tyrion and does not see how much she has alienated and disgusted Jaime...

edited to add:

Spoiler

I think if Jaime is the one to kill Cersei, it might be in an unexpected way -- ie she is condemned to death and he does a mercy killing or something of that nature as opposed to cold blooded murder...

[duchess of malfi]

Finished! Here're my comments.

Cersei and the Sparrows:

Spoiler

Stupid. Very, very stupid. Allowing the High Sparrow to reform the Swords and Stars was the worst thing she could possibly have done, and she's certainly paying for it. At this rate half the kingdom will end up facing the Faith's justice. Yet another big event that no-one predicted - but then, how could we possibly have predicted it - Martin never even hinted that the Faith had once had a military branch.

Oh yes, that was the personification of flat out stupidity! Blowing off the Bank isn't a very bright idea, either!

Jaime:

Spoiler

Saw his sister's folly easily enough, but couldn't disobey his orders - but perhaps that's for the best. With Cersei imprisoned Kevan is likely to return and assume the regency, which is probably the best thing that could happen, but if Jaime was in King's Landing he would have to fight for her at the trial, and he could never win, he's not ready to fight. Leaving Cersei to her fate may seem cruel, but she'll get what she deserves. Then Jaime can return, and help Tommen become a real king.

Spoiler

There was actually quite a lot going on with Jaime in the Riverlands. That threat he made to Edmure made my blood run cold, especially about the baby. And he made it in front of Tom o'Sevens. Wasn't that guy once part of the Brotherhood without Banners? Might he be the spy Jaime thinks might be in the camp? If so, if Jaime's horrible threats might have been carried back to unCat, and no wonder she decided to execute Brienne! Stoneheart would have thought Jaime was breaking his pledge not to harm Tullys and Starks, and would have thought him to be an awful person...and would have had no reason to listen to Brienne saying Jaime is changed and has found honor...

Also the whole thing with Lancel. If he goes back to King's Landing and makes a public confession about what he and Cersei have done...wow, that will be a mess for the Lannisters...

Sansa:

Spoiler

Finally her brain makes an appearance. I think with Littlefinger's help she's finally showing her intelligence, though this plot of his seems dangerous. He intends to marry her once the Imp is dead, and to reveal her name at the wedding - but the Imp won't die any time soon, so I don't see how that will happen. Once she has the Vale on her side, what then? The Freys hold the Neck, the Ironmen have Moat Cailin, the Bastard of Bolton has most of the Northmen on his side, and Stannis is on the Wall. If the northmen rally to her banners, she still has Ramsey and Stannis to deal with.

Spoiler

I worry for Sansa. Of all of the Stark kids, I think she is the one in the most danger right now, even more than Arya. She is in danger of poisoning her little cousin to death. I know he is an obnoxious and sickly child, but can you see Sansa poisoning him with that sweetsleep crap and Littlefinger not using that to manipulate her ?? Nor to mention how much that might harden her?

Arya:

Spoiler

Seems she's becoming quite the little cutthroat. The kindly man seems disappointed whenever she shows her true self, and I don't think she even knows why she's doing this. I can't tell if she'll go all the way with it - she doesn't seem capable of giving up her old self. And it wouldn't make a good story if Arya was finally gone, and abandoned all her emotional ties to Westeros. Hiding Needle may be a sign that she'll never truly leave her identity behind, but she could always go back and rid herself of it - I expect the kindly man knows she hid it. As for that last line... I suspect a temporary blindness from one of the poisons, as punishment for what she did to Daveon.

Spoiler

The blindness might also be the next phase of her training. Wasn't there a blind acolyte in an earlier scene? The whole temple is fascinating. I love the hints of the ties with the origin of this religion in old Valyria. How will this death cult react to Dany and the Dragons? Will they want to pull Dany down because she is of old Valyrian blood and magic, or will they support her for her defense of slaves and little people, with their roots in social injustice.

And what the heck is that Faceless Man up to at the Citadel? Why did he kill the hapless trainee in the prologue and why is he there at the end posing as the trainee, along with the disguised Sand Snake and the Archmaester who warns Sam about the other Maesters????

Brienne:

Spoiler

Can't be dead. If the word she shouted was Jaime, I'll be sorely disappointed. If Brienne is not cut down, then her story served no purpose but to tell us the fate of Sandor Clegane, and I can't believe that would be the only reason for it.

Spoiler

She is the one who took Arya's place as the eyes and voice for the little people of Westeros and their horrible suffering as a result of the civil wars and their aftermath. Through her we also learn that Sandor is probably still alive (the gravedigger) and learn more about the new and not improved Brotherhood Without Banners. I hope she and Pod live!!

Daenerys:

Spoiler

Seems she'll be gathering quite a crowd when we see her. Tyrion is on his way, Prince Doran has snet his son Quentyn, and Archmaester Marwyn the Mage has hopped the first ship over there. Looking forward to seeing what happens.

Spoiler

The Iron Islanders are also on their way, with Euron wanting her as his bride, and Victarian wanting to steal her from his brother since Euron once debauched his wife. Few thinsg are as nasty as family disputes.

[tonyz]

Personally, I think Brienne is dead. You weren't expecting Ned's death or the Red Wedding either, were you?

[duchess of malfi]

Personally, I think Brienne is dead. You weren't expecting Ned's death or the Red Wedding either, were you?

I am also worried for Davos...

[Roland of Gilead]

I would be extremely disappointed if Davos is dead. I personally loathe "off-camera" demises like that. Davos was a major POV character, and if the reader learns of his death after the fact, so to speak, in a botched hostage situation, no less, that would be disgusting.

However, I don't believe Martin will do that. We're not getting the whole story yet, and what we heard at King's Landing is not true.

I wasn't especially thrilled with what happened to Loras Tyrell, either. I like to see these things "up close and personal," not reported later by a third party, particularly an interesting character like the Knight of Flowers. But that's just me.

[I'm Murrin]

Interesting that something possibly so important would be missed out. Usually Martin puts a PoV char in place for every major event, so Loras was certainly an unusual one (you'd think there'd at least be a perspective on the siege/assault, even if it didn't show Loras directly). Makes you wonder - is there another new PoV? Or has he used an existing one? If so, the most likely option for that role would be Davos, if he weren't dead.

[duchess of malfi]

It does give you a nice feeling for the time period involved, though -- when rumor was the way most people did get their news.

[OsRavan]

knight of flowers prob isnt dead. heh i doubt hes very good looking anymore though

[Zahir]

Some thoughts...

Cercei

Spoiler

is supposed to lose everything to a Queen "younger and more beautiful than her" right? But consider what might be meant by "Beautiful." For example, what will Cercei look like if she undergoes torture (as seems likely)? And she seems not to be aging well at all. What if the "more beautiful queen" ends up being Catelyn? Or even Brienne!

Dany

Spoiler

is assumed to have three consorts in her future. Okay. But why does everyone assume they'll all be men? Asha and Sansa both spring to mind under this scenario--especially the latter since she lost her dragon.

Jaime

Spoiler

burned the letter. That doesn't mean he won't respond. Nor does it mean he will. The main thing is, I don't think it certain any more he will act to save his sister.

The one thing that pretty much convinces me

Spoiler

Brienne is not dead--and this will sound odd--is the sigil she had painted on her shield. Whose was it? I just have a sneaking feeling one way or another... But then, I just don't want her to be dead, do I?

[duchess of malfi]

Briene:

Spoiler

The sigil belonged to her ancestor, Ser Duncan the Tall, better known as Ser Dunc from the Dunc and Egg novellas.

[I'm Murrin]

Is that the one she had painted over the top, or the one that was covered up?
Either way, I agree.

Spoiler

Dunc is probably one of the most famous Lord Commanders of the Kingsguard, so that could be pretty significant. However, so far I can't really see Brienne's place in the larger story - she was there as part of Jaime's development at first, then branched off. She could end up involved in Stoneheart's gang, could join Sansa and Littlefinger, could just get killed off, but I don't see where she fits in the whole Dany/Others thing GRRM is surely setting up slowly and unobtrusively in the background of these plotlines.

[duchess of malfi]

It was the new one she had painted.