Kevin's Watch

If you haven't yet finished book 2, don't read on.

...

Ok, let's see, the end of the book...

Norge is seen "going down" from afar, that's it. No proper death scene, no further mention. No drama, no excitement.

The Monomach dies in a cheap way... that would be ok, if it were a well-written scene, but it just isn't. After all these fights, all these duels, he just drops dead. No drama, no excitement.

Gilbur... a heart stroke? Come on, Stephen! No drama, no excitement.

Vagel... don't see him dying. No drama, no excitement.

Eremis... mind gets lost. Neat, but: No drama, no excitement. And by the way, our heroes should by now really now that not everything in imagery is like it was believed to be for ages, so why don't they just damn make sure and kill his body? Would serve them right if he manages to get his mind out of eternal translation...

Alltogether not very satisfying to me.

A bit bloodthirsty today, eh, Sev?

Actually, I've always wondered that about Eremis, too!

duchess of malfi wrote:A bit bloodthirsty today, eh, Sev?

No, I just hate wasted climaxes (*cough* in every aspect *cough*), and these deaths are just that.

Also, the villains ends lack a certain punishment factor...

Gee, I always sort of like the way they managed to dispose of all their enemies.

A heart attack for Gilbur was fitting to his character, I thought. He was just so full of rage, I could see it happening.

And what do you mean, the Monomach "just drops dead." As I recall, he was actually killed. He didn't just keel over or something.

~MsMary~

Death is mostly quite unexciting. I do not remember that the protagonists in other SRD books seem to meet their fates in much more dramatically appropriate ways either.

And I too seem to remember that the Monomach was killed in battle, although I do not remember the circumstances.

Yeah, he was killed in battle, but it was just... No drama, no excitement. All I'm saying.

.. feed the baby meat!!

Not killing Eremis when they could have might be some sort of statement...SRD likes the goodygoody way of NOT KILLING EVERYONE *sigh*...

Not killing everyone is my favorite way of dealing with people too.

Personally, I really liked how Eremis ended his existence, mind wiped, staring at himself eternally. Terisa's comment to leave him, because he's probably happy that way, made me giggle. She had truly learned the joys of revenge. It was a fate worse than death for the brilliant (in his own mind) Eremis.

Just IMHO.

I didn't think the scenes were all that good either... I think they might have been amazing if written probably... And I didn't even know Norge died until it was mentioed by the King after...

They were ok... I liked it that Eremis got his mind wiped... The wanker deserved it imo...

Working in a hospital, my coworkers and I talk about death and ugly medical conditions a lot. Pretty much everyone I know would rather be dead than live life without a mind in a permanent vegetative state. A lot of people I know would actually consider what happened to Eremis to be much worse than death...

I didn't have any problems with the deaths--I thought Gart's was very implicit and important--especially to any hope of Nyle's personal redemption--I may have had a little prob with Norge but he was a tool to get the Tor up-just a tool-but I know Sev tended to identify with him to much . Y'all have good points re: Vagel, but we didn't see him all that much before-so what's the big deal...

I totaly disgaree with Sev on Gart and Gilbur...however.

I would have liked to see Gilbur in a slow and painful way... In fact I would have loved Nyle to rip his damned throat out.

I think what's so great about Gilbur's heart attack is the reason he had it--the contest of wills between himself and Geraden over the translation of the storm. Gilbur's heart gave out because Geraden was stronger than he was--stronger talent, stronger will, and stronger personally. It would have been nice to see him get struck by lightning, or have his head bitten off by one of those black furry things, but I really approve of the fact that it was Geraden's strength that killed him.

As for Eremis, I would have liked to see him humiliated quite a bit more; but I guess since that's what he did to people all the time, it was important for the good guys to have more restraint. But it was also important that Terisa beat him with her own strengths. Sending him into permanent, self-perpetuating translation was a good way of doing that.....her "fading " spells were brought on by father's treatment of her...once or twice she compares Eremis to her father...translation is described as a feeling of fading...so by forcing Eremis into permanent translation, she damns him to feeling like he's fading forever, and gets to revenge her own childhood as well. So maybe it's not as exciting as having Artagel come in and chop off his head, but it makes a lot more sense in the context of the story.

I have a question about one detail of Eremis defeat. Terisa had a hard time extricating herself from underneath Eremis.

Was he rigidly frozen in place, like a statue? Or did he collapse on her after his mind was locked in the permanent translation?

Would a massive overdose of Viagra cause the same problem?

DW

Myste wrote:I think what's so great about Gilbur's heart attack is the reason he had it--the contest of wills between himself and Geraden over the translation of the storm. Gilbur's heart gave out because Geraden was stronger than he was--stronger talent, stronger will, and stronger personally. It would have been nice to see him get struck by lightning, or have his head bitten off by one of those black furry things, but I really approve of the fact that it was Geraden's strength that killed him.

As for Eremis, I would have liked to see him humiliated quite a bit more; but I guess since that's what he did to people all the time, it was important for the good guys to have more restraint. But it was also important that Terisa beat him with her own strengths. Sending him into permanent, self-perpetuating translation was a good way of doing that.....her "fading " spells were brought on by father's treatment of her...once or twice she compares Eremis to her father...translation is described as a feeling of fading...so by forcing Eremis into permanent translation, she damns him to feeling like he's fading forever, and gets to revenge her own childhood as well. So maybe it's not as exciting as having Artagel come in and chop off his head, but it makes a lot more sense in the context of the story.

Excellent post Myste! Some great points in there!

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Would a massive overdose of Viagra cause the same problem?

Wouldn't know, as I have never had no need of using it.

I think it was fairly strongly hinted at that Eremis remained 'rigidly frozen' after losing his mind. I was kind of ambivalent about Eremis' fate. It's ver clever and appropriate, but after everything he'd done I was kind of rooting for him to meet a painful and bloody demise.

How would you want the bad guys to end? Imagine if in Chrons Lord Foul had been defeated by Bannor coming in and beating the snot out of him? I personally think that Vagel returning from his epic battle with Havelock with a tree branch in his head (forgive me if I am wrong, it's been a few months and I didn't bring the books to college...) is infinitely cooler than if we had seen Havelock say, incinerate him with his fire.

And how could you hate Eremis' end! The villain’s death had to be a result of their tragic flaw. Foul is defeated because he thinks he cannot lose. Macbeth dies as a culmination of his destructive Ambition. Lear dies because of his enormous foolishness. Eremis' death is a direct result of his immense, powerful conceit. Eremis doesn't have Hiletroyitis, he has Iamsoawesomeishouldruletheworlditis. Its only natural also that Terisa does him in by appealing to his *ahem* manly arrogance. And the image of Eremis standing there in his stiff embrace, and his stiff manhood (hey, I didn't make this stuff up) Satisfied me to no end.

As for Gilbur, his hate was so self destructive it, well, destroyed him. Hmm, This is the least compelling to me of the final "showdowns" So I will move on.

I actually think that it is a good think that Gart was killed because of a cheap shot. SRD spent 2 whole books trying to make Gart the most fearsome thing on two legs in his entire world, well, Artagal was just outmatched. I think it made that last battle more tense. You always *know* the good guys win, I like anything to make me doubt that.

Norge? Who cares? He was a flat character introduced to replace one of the Roundest characters Donaldson has ever conceived. I didn’t care about him at all.

I would just like to reiterate, I LOVED Vagel's end. You just have to Imagine exactly what could have transpired to place a tree trunk through the Arch-Imager and perennial scourge of Mordant's head. Bloody Brilliant!

P.S. I am going to eschew the spoiler tabs, seing as how the thread title is evidence of the greatest possible spoiler anyone can get.

The Dreaming wrote:And how could you hate Eremis' end! The villain’s death had to be a result of their tragic flaw. Foul is defeated because he thinks he cannot lose. Macbeth dies as a culmination of his destructive Ambition. Lear dies because of his enormous foolishness. Eremis' death is a direct result of his immense, powerful conceit. Eremis doesn't have Hiletroyitis, he has Iamsoawesomeishouldruletheworlditis. Its only natural also that Terisa does him in by appealing to his *ahem* manly arrogance. And the image of Eremis standing there in his stiff embrace, and his stiff manhood (hey, I didn't make this stuff up) Satisfied me to no end.

I don't hate Eremis' fate, it's just that after half a book of various people swearing how Eremis will pay for what he's done, I was practically baying for his blood by the end. I felt that the cleverness of Terisa's trap was perhaps outweighed by the reader's (mine, anyway) hatred of Eremis, and didn't quite provide the sense of finality I was looking for.