Kevin's Watch

Why didn't TC accept the Creator's offer to restore TC to the land so that he could live out his life as a hero?

His whole defense of his unbelief was that belief of the Land violated his self-protective measures that help him cope with his illness in the real world.

Well, the Creator offered TC to live out his remaining life in the Land. Which is better? A life of health in the Land amongst friends, or a life as an outcast leper in his cold dead real life?

Is TC a masochist?

We know that Ten years later, TC did return to the land, and he had no problems believing in the Land then. And he eventually died, but still lived on as one of the dead.

Might it not have been wise for TC to accept the Creator's offer?

Is TC that stubborn? That absolute?

I don't think he could have coped with the kind of praise and treatment they'd give him. He managed to overcome his fear of power to defeat Foul, but I doubt he would have been able to manage, let alone enjoy, life as the Saviour of The Land.

The Somberlain wrote:I don't think he could have coped with the kind of praise and treatment they'd give him. He managed to overcome his fear of power to defeat Foul, but I doubt he would have been able to manage, let alone enjoy, life as the Saviour of The Land.

I think he's just a cranky man who enjoys being cranky and miserable.

But inside, he is more. We see this when he sheds a tear upon seeing Mhoram and the others sing a song of thanks to him.

I don't understand TC's choice. To live in the real world as a social pariah is easier to bear than living in the Land, in health, and amongst friends?

I don't get it.

At the end of TPTP he doesn't care if it is a dream or not...it was still worth fighting for.

But if he took up the offer, he would be admitting it to himself that it was in fact real...well what if it turned out to be a dream?
This was still possible in Cov's mind, so what if he said,"Okay, I'll be the Ur-lord, and live in Revelstone like a king." And then a few days later, he woke up in the hospital? He would have gone crazy.

...In the end, he had not failed the Land. And he had a heart which could still pump blood, bones which could still bear his weight; he had himself.
Thomas Covenant: Unbeliever.
A miracle....
...He smiled because he was alive.

He did not accept the Creator's offer because in his victory over Despite he had found his own answer, and did not need perfect health or adoration in order to live out his life. He had accepted himself, and that's all he needed.

dlbpharmd wrote:He did not accept the Creator's offer because in his victory over Despite he had found his own answer, and did not need perfect health or adoration in order to live out his life. He had accepted himself, and that's all he needed.

Probably!


Hmmm.... I would have stayed!! Let's say he did.... What would have happended when Fould started the Sunbane!!

Linden would have been there without Cov!!
She would never have even left Nasics cave.

drew wrote:At the end of TPTP he doesn't care if it is a dream or not...it was still worth fighting for.

But if he took up the offer, he would be admitting it to himself that it was in fact real...well what if it turned out to be a dream?
This was still possible in Cov's mind, so what if he said,"Okay, I'll be the Ur-lord, and live in Revelstone like a king." And then a few days later, he woke up in the hospital? He would have gone crazy.

...In the end, he had not failed the Land. And he had a heart which could still pump blood, bones which could still bear his weight; he had himself.
Thomas Covenant: Unbeliever.
A miracle....
...He smiled because he was alive.

So at the end of TPTP, Covenant still did not believe in the Land, even after he woke up alive despite his body's rejection of anti-venom. He said to the Creator, I'll believe it when it happens, speaking of the Creator's gift of life to TC.

So he woke up, alive, glad to be alive and for 10 years he lived in peace with himself. He wanted to live, inspite of his illness, and that's why he maintained a strong hold on unbelief.

But something happened in the 10 years.

When the Wounded Land happened, TC no longer struggled with disbelief. He seemed to accept the Land as real. Why the change then?

Why did TC step into the triangle, sacrificing himself for Joan? Was it suicide? Did he give up? It seems like it. Maybe by the time the Wounded Land happened, he was at the end of his ropes. He had gone lax with his VSE,his strict discipline that enabled him to face his life. In the Wounded Land, he never did his VSE. He never held firm to his disbelief that kept him alive in the first Chronicles. Is it because he no longer cared about living? When he sacrificed himself for Joan, was it an act of suicide?

The entire second Chronicles was about TC's death. So was he really more at peace at the end of TPTP than before? His will to fight, will to live, will to disbelieve for the sake of his sanity has completely disappeared in the Second Chronicles.

Creator wrote:What would have happended when Fould started the Sunbane!!

There probably wouldn't be a Sunbane, and no Linden, as Linden would not have any way to get to the Land.

Building on my previous post, I think the Second Chronicles would be much stronger and more consistent IF TC still held onto his disbelief. Maybe he would've disbelieved Linden was really there, thinking she was just a fragment of his mind, the same mind that created Hile Troy.

But maybe somewhere along, he realized that he had to sacrifice himself to save the Land and still hold onto his Unbelief. As before, he had to accept the paradox of unbelief and love for the land.

I tend to believe that in the end, Covenant's refusal was caused by a few things:

1) He had understood and accepted the paradox of the Land - that it didn't matter whether it was real or not, all that mattered was that he loved it and that it was worth fighting for - but he still could not bring himself to believe it existed for real, and therefore, accepting the Creator's proposal could have meant simply going mad, from his point of view. See his battle with Foul, when Foul asks him why is he willing to stand for the Land, and he says "Because I do not believe.", and his comment to the Creator,

"I told Foul I didn't believe in him. I don't really believe in you either."

It follows that he cannot bring himself to accept a gift which - if it turned out to be a hallucination, a dream, or anything less than fully real - could easily destroy him. In fact, he isn't even too sure that the Creator will truly save his life, claiming (as was mentioned above) that he would believe it when he would see it.

2) He couldn't bring himself to live in the Land as its savior, the Illender, Prover of Life, Ur-Lord and Unbeliever; he probably thought he wasn't worthy of living in such a wonderful place, even if it were real, considering all he had done. Remember that he saw Lena in TPTP, and she died in his arms, after accusing him of having killed Elena; that he saw Triock's forgiveness; that he was a witness to Foamfollower's sacrifice. He couldn't have borne this burden, I think, and he couldn't have accepted living in the Land and being universally considered a savior and a hero, knowing that all he had done had only been possible thanks to those who sacrificed themselves for him.

To go back to point 1, note that Covenant's glimpse of Mhoram and Glimmermere happens after he accepts the Creator's offer of being cured of the snake's venom - and I think it's in that moment, when the Creator's gift allows him to see the Land healed and safe, victorious, that he fully and finally realizes that the Land is real - real in all the ways that matter to him, real because he cares about it, real because he loves it.

Then of course, in the Second Chronicles he has inklings - even if he needed them - that the Land is indeed a real place: Joan speaks of things she wouldn't be able to know if they were only products of Covenant's mind; he sees Foul's eyes in the fire; he sees the cultists enslaved by Foul; there's hardly a doubt by that point that the Land has a separate existence. So, when he gets into the Land, he's past the stage where he wonders whether the Land is real or not; it is very likely real, but even in the case it were not, it doesn't matter because he accepts it as real and important to him.

Very nice post, Xar...

Yes, excellent post, Xar.

I don't think it's so difficult to understand Covenant's choice, based on what we know of him. In addition to Xar's eloquent points above, can anyone see Covenant standing atop the tower of Revelstone, posturing and "Hey babe, I'm the Unbeliever and I saved the world"? A life of adulation just wouldn't fit.

Baracka wrote:We know that Ten years later, TC did return to the land, and he had no problems believing in the Land then. And he eventually died, but still lived on as one of the dead.

Runes Spoilers? Or do you mean that bit right at the end of the Second Chronicles, his Obi-Wan trick with Foul?

Conker wrote:

Baracka wrote:We know that Ten years later, TC did return to the land, and he had no problems believing in the Land then. And he eventually died, but still lived on as one of the dead.

Runes Spoilers?

Covenant says that much at the end of White Gold Wielder.