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George RR Martin talks about Donaldson

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:26 pm
by Kalessian
Hi :) I found this on another board I frequent, asoiaf.westeros.org.

George RR Martin said this very recently about Donaldson:
Teri Pettit wrote:At both signings George talked mostly about the history of his writing career, the ups and downs of being an author (at Half Moon Bay he told some anecdotes about Stephen R. Donaldson, who also lives in New Mexico and is a long-time friend of George's), and stories about past signing tours.
Ran wrote:Excellent, Teri. :)

Recall any of those anecdotes about Donaldson? Big fan of his work, as well. :)
Teri wrote:Well, let's see. It came up in a context of someone asking him if, after he completes Song of Ice and Fire, he intends to write more stories in that world, or whether he will switch to something different. To which he said that he would prefer to do something new, but he really likes his work to be read (the biggest reason he left the film industry was frustration at writing pilots and concept treatments that nobody but the studio execs ever saw). Then he listed a number of authors who had trouble selling anything set outside the world and characters that made them famous, including Arthur Conan Doyle with Sherlock Holmes, Frank Herbert with Dune, etc.

That led into an account of Donaldson's publishing career. He told about how Donaldson wrote all three volumes of the first Chronicles of Thomas Covenant before sending any of them to a publisher, and he sent the whole package of three books to all 43 companies that were publishing science fiction and fantasy at the time, and got rejected by them all. The publishers all felt the basic premise was unmarketable. "Who is going to want to read about a leper?", they asked. Then he started over at the beginning of the list, modifying his cover letter to address some of the objections. He finally got someone to take a risk on it, and it became a best seller. Suddenly the publishers were all over him to write more of the same. The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant was also a big hit, and he got begged to do a Third Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. But Donaldson was wanting to try something different. So he wrote "Mordant's Need", and, as George quoted Donaldson "lost three quarters of his audience". Not learning his lesson, he followed that with the Gap series, and "lost three quarters of the readers he had left." He found that his best sellers were not due to millions of Stephen R. Donaldson fans, but to millions of Thomas Covenant fans. After that, publishers wouldn't touch a non-TC Donaldson novel with a ten foot pole. Finally he came back in 2004 with The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, which is selling again.

Then GRRM recapped his concern that he hopes he doesn't just have Song of Ice and Fire fans, and suggested that the audience buy the reprints of his earlier works like Fevre Dream, Dying of the Light, and Armageddon Rag, to prove to his publishers that there's a readership for GRRM works set outside the world of Westeros.
This upset me. It almost suggests that Donaldson wasn't doing so well anymore and that he resorted to the Last Chrons as a means to rake in the cash. Sigh....

To think that books like the Gap were financial failures?!? Just goes to show you how ignorant the public is because of marketing. I bet Star Wars and Halo books sold 10 times better than the Gap...

I've always considered myself a Donaldson fan. How about you guys?

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:45 pm
by dlbpharmd
Welcome to KW!

I think it's pretty safe to say we're all SRD fans.

Personally, I'm not offended at what GRRM said about SRD, and I don't see how anyone could be. GRRM didn't say anything that wasn't true.

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:45 pm
by drew
It's not even correct.

He only submitted LFB, and wrote the TIW while it was being constantly rejected, and I bleive TPTP while it was being printed by DelRey...I'm pretty sure he talks about this on his site.

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:48 pm
by dlbpharmd
Drew may be correct, I don't recall the specifics. What I'm saying is that what GRRM says about SRD losing his audience is true.

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:17 am
by duchess of malfi
dlbpharmd wrote:What I'm saying is that what GRRM says about SRD losing his audience is true.
It's very true. SRD himself says it.

You can even see it here, at a gathering of SRD fans. The sections of the board that deal with the Thomas Covenant books get a lot more traffic than the areas devoted to Mordant, the Gap, or his mystery series.

Don't get me wrong -- I think the Chronicles are an all time classic of any genre. They are what brought me here. 8)

But I also find much to value in his other writings, too. :)

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:31 am
by Kalessian
dlbpharmd wrote:Welcome to KW!

I think it's pretty safe to say we're all SRD fans.

Personally, I'm not offended at what GRRM said about SRD, and I don't see how anyone could be. GRRM didn't say anything that wasn't true.
It wasn't anything that GRRM said, it's the way the GRRM fans acted superior. I know not everyone can love SRD as we do, but alas, I can dream...

:P

What's mostly upsetting is how the Gap etc. don't sell as well as some of this other (relatively)crap out there.

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:21 pm
by Usivius
All true what I see.
I count myself as an SRD fan, not one book or another. I find SRD's writing style to be gripping and absorbing (somthing I don't get from any other author, including Martin, Eddings, etc...). I loved TC, but it was Mordant's need that sold me on him. And he was the only author who made me like sci-fi (which I normally hate), with his Gap series. I even love the mystery novels!
It is his style of writing, how deeply he allows us in to the characters, and in a satisfying manner (not necessarily 'happy', but always satisfying).

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:47 pm
by [Syl]
I disagree with Martin on a couple of (relatively minor) points. First, I don't think Donaldson lost any fans, at least, not many (and for every self-proclaimed fan who read MN or the Gap and said, "I'm never reading Donaldson again," there are, I believe, at least three others who read MN or the Gap and said, "Man, I gotta check out this guy's other stuff."). He might not have had as many readers for his other works, but like he said, those were Covenant fans, not Donaldson fans. I've read a lot of books, but I'm a fan of only a handful, and of those, a fan of only a few authors. There's a difference, and I think Martin does Donaldson a small slight by not mentioning the other half. I know he's using Donaldson as an example for the industry, but it can be viewed as a failing of Donaldson himself.

And let's face it: there are a lot of fantasy types that won't go near a serious science fiction novel. Sci-fi, by and large, is a more difficult read. There are also very few of the mechanisms that give the majority of fantasy fans that feel-good escapism (which, imo, is one reason why Star Trek has such a big base... replicators, holodecks, and FTL are similar mechanisms. and we all know Star Wars is more fantasy than sci-fi). I believe Donaldson said in the GI that sales of the Gap are only poor in comparison to sales of Covenant. Compared to regular sci-fi, the sales were better than average.

Granted, it's hard to explain MN (I'd say it's because the world building wasn't as good, but considering I've never made it through the second half, what do I know), but I'd say The Man Who books are a decent counter.

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:25 pm
by CovenantJr
Yes, the comments about losing readers are certainly true. SRD himself has said he couldn't give away the Gap books. But I don't think SRD returned to Covenant for financial gain. It may be partly stubborn refusal to believe such a thing of my favourite author, but also I think if he was going to do it for the money it would have happened sooner.

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:10 pm
by Cheval
When I first read Lord Foul's Bane, I was addicted to his style of writing. (Gimme more!)
After completing the first three books,
that's when I went out to find more fantasy stories by SRD.
(Yes, I admit, I was a Covenant fan)

Then I found The Real Story. (And the rest of the GAP series.)
Totally different from what I expected... for the good.
That's when I found that I was a Donaldson fan and not a Covenant fan.

I would definitly add to my "library" anything and everything that Mr. Donaldson publishes.

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:19 pm
by Sorus
Well said.

Gap was my introduction to SRD, and it remains my favorite of his work, but none of his work is less than incredible.

About four years ago when I was working for Waldenbooks I came across his name on an invoice, along with the title 'The Man Who Fought Alone'. It was getting into the holiday season, and there were about 300 boxes stacked floor to ceiling in the little stockroom. I ended up staying about five hours late because I wasn't leaving without it.

It was worth it. :twisted:

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:06 pm
by Revan
I think that his Gap series are much better than the Thomas Covenant chronicles... and I read the Chronicles before I read the Gap stories...

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:40 pm
by Ellester
I’ll admit I started reading SRD with the Covenant series and was awaiting new books like The White Gold Wielder and noticed that they were displayed in the front of bookstores. Mordant Need seemed to follow this same example; books were displayed in the front of the store. I thought they were pretty good sellers. But I don’t know, it just seems like Mordant Need books were as popular as Covenant books.

But I’m with the group that dropped out with the Gap series. At the time the only science fiction I read was the Martian Chronicles. And Bradbury is really a horror writer over a science fiction author. So I’m an example of a part of his fan base the dropped out during his science fiction phase. Although I was more a fantasy fan as I bought the Daughter of Regals and other tales because it contained fantasy.

What a mistake that was. I finally read the gap series, after I started to become a sci-fi fan, and wow! I was blown away. In many ways I find the gap series to be the best of Donaldson’s work, as others have mentioned.

Nowadays my favorite reads are history, fantasy, sci-fi, mystery and horror. And I’m a huge sucker for short story collections. So an author like Donaldson fits my needs perfectly, as I will read in any medium he chooses to write in.

Also, don’t worry about the cash in idea. As soon as the second Chronicles of Covenant were finished Donaldson already had plans for the third series. This has been an idea brewing for 20 years. We all knew it was coming we just didn’t know when. Read Senior’s critical review to hear SRD talk about the third chronicles in a 1991 interview.

Also I hope Martin succeeds in other areas other than Fire and Ice because for the most part I don’t enjoy authors who only write in one world like Jordan or Pratchett. It would suck if Martin got pigeon holed into one series.

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:10 am
by Variol Farseer
Another thing that has happened since Covenant debuted is that the fantasy market has become much more saturated and fragmented. It's hard to believe, but in 1977 there were really only four major epic fantasies on the market:

1. The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, and the long-delayed Silmarillion (which was finally published in 1977).

2. The Sword of Shannara, published that year.

3. TCOTC, published in three volumes that year.

4. Circle of Light, a very strange YA tetralogy by Niel Hancock, also published that year. This one sold a zillion copies at the time, then dropped from sight for many years. It was just reissued by Starscape last year.

(By the way, isn't it amazing that Circle of Light and TCOTC were each published simultaneously, with zero wait between volumes? No publisher would even think of doing such a thing now.)

Compare that with the acres of shelf space crowded with Big Fat Fantasy in any Borders or B&N today. The average sale of a fantasy title is a tiny fraction of what it was then, even though the total number of books sold is way up. A handful of writers — Jordan, Martin, Goodkind — get the heavy publicity and high-pressure marketing required to produce the kind of numbers that SRD used to get when his books were 'marketed' by plain old word of mouth. A lot of excellent writers — Erikson, Kay, SRD himself, to name three — are largely ignored by the hype machine, but still sell in quite respectable quantities.

George R.R. Martin gets 'The Treatment' from his publisher because he is a canny old pro who knows where the bodies are buried, and could present himself to Bantam as their answer to the one-two punch of Jordan and Goodkind. SRD, because of his deliberate decision not to spend the last 20 years cranking out Covenant books, has rather unfairly been saddled with a reputation as a has-been. Consequently, no such 'Treatment' is forthcoming.

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:01 pm
by jonnyredleader
it is unfortunate but the truth is in the sales. Its not so much a case of Gap being inferior to Covenant from a writing point of view (noone can say that) but that if you want sales then write what sells. Covenant sells because its what people wanted to read, bands make this mistake regulariy once they make the big time. They pursue their art instead of the audience commerciality because they suddenly have the financial freedom or forget what made them sell in the first place. If you want to be rich give people what they want or make them want what you have ;)

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:50 pm
by danlo
One thing to remember is that the international success of TCTC rode on a fairly small yet strong fantasy wave at the time bolstered by the initial popularity of The Lord of the Rings (and their mass paperback publishing by Ballentine Books) and, possibly, Moorcock's Elric books with Lin Carter's repackaging of the Conan stories and one or to others. Fantasy in general took a huge nosedive after that. Except (and we love to blame him) for the mass market appeal of Terry Brook's (LOTR ripoff) The Sword of Shanarra...So I would argue that fantasy in general lost a large part of it's audience back then.

(oh and BTW johnny...I've said it many times before: Bantam Spectra has a history of dropping the ball pretty hard on marketing some very well written books including Zindell's Neverness, A Requiem for Homo Sapiens and the Gap Cycle, as prime examples...)

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:26 am
by bossk
I think it's pretty easy to put the kibosh on the notion of a cash-in. These novels are to thick, involved and difficult to be a cash-in. A cash-in would be four 300 page books featuring the happy-schlappy ghosts of Foamfollower and Lord Mhoram.

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:23 am
by Rigel
I just read that original post again. While I just watched the series Game of Thrones, I haven't read the books. That ancedote, however, made more more interested in reading GRRM's earlier works (perhaps waiting to read his SoIaF until the next HBO series has aired).

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:43 am
by lucimay
i highly recommend

Image

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:01 pm
by bossk
Rigel wrote:I just read that original post again. While I just watched the series Game of Thrones, I haven't read the books. That ancedote, however, made more more interested in reading GRRM's earlier works (perhaps waiting to read his SoIaF until the next HBO series has aired).
I have the opposite problem. I read the books a few years ago, but don't have HBO, so I have no idea how they're being adapted, other than the fact that everyone seems to love the show.