Kevin's Watch

Why are there 2? There's the Creator/LF hurling down imprisonment theme, then there's the worm/wurd/wyrd/yeah whatever eating a bunch of stars and getting crusty w/the earth and stuff...the elohim tell the worm one, they aren't the most trustworthy of folk but....and then TC actually speaks w/ the creator! Surely that validates the creator myth....I'll accept that the Creator set the worm thing into motion to eventually create the earth, that somewhat resembles my own reconciliation b/t the powers that b and evolution...I think the Presiding Force THingy set evolution into motion so that we have such an intricate and beautiful system of life, death and natural selection today...So the Creator made stars, let a worm eat them, in order to eventually create us, rather than just hands-on make us? I like that for my own theory of life's beginning but would SRD have come up w/that?

My God, it's full of stars!


Speaking of stars, worms, and creation....


As I was re-reading this last time i had a thought

1. The Wyrm/Wurd/Wird thingy ate the "living" stars

2. The stars inside caused the Wyrm to become stationary and caused a "crust to grow" - ie the Land as we know it.

3. The Elohim are EarthPower incarnate.

4. Towards the end of the Elmfest (whatever it was called) Linden and all the company along with the Elohim were (apparently) catapulted into space (or had a vision of such) where Elohim became points of light.


Conclusion =====> The Elohim ARE the stars that the Wyrm ate. They are the children of the Creator, trapped within the Arch of Time.

Problem with this is why wouldn't the Elohim want the Arch destroyed? Then they could reunite with their Father/Creator.

Apparently the Giants and Elohim have the same creation story - except the Giants add giant fish as spawn of the worm. I'm sure the Haruchai have their own creation story - I'm sure it deals with some fallen uber-Haruchai in a pitched battle with the emotionless, stoic Creator. The stars are the drops of blood that are flung off in the battle, and the Land is a tattered piece of flesh that drops from the Creator when the fallen uber-Haruchai bites his ear or something.

Where do the Ravers fit in?

SS

Good God! You're a genius! You're right!

My conlcusion: the Elohim don't want to leave because they have become all powerful here, and are power hungry. Huh, I dunno...that could be it...Or maybe..they are afraid that their father would be angry with their behavior on Earth?

Speculative theology weirdness:

The Würd can be interpreted as Word. One is reminded of the Word of God from the Bible with which He created the world. In Gnostic traditions Christ is called Logos (Word).

So, is the World Worm the Creator's son? The next time we'll see it, it will trigger the end of the world, much like Christ is supposed to, although by different means.

Also remember the word wyrm which means dragon. There is a certain prominent dragon in John's Revelation, which I think most people have heard of. Wyrm is actually closer to Würd than Worm is. English doesn't have that particular ü sound, but in several languages y is used to denote the same sound as German ü. Is this indication for Lord Foul somehow possessing the World Worm (the Christ-equivalent!) at the end of the Third Chronicles? That way he could potentially survive awakening it.

Potentially, if Creator and Lord Foul are sides of a same being, the World Worm could be also counted as one. After all, the Christ and the father God are supposed to be the same according to the very important principle of Holy Trinity. That way, if Thomas Covenant and Lord Foul are also parts of the same person and that was how Covenant defeated Foul in the end of White Gold Wielder, Foul could conceivably use the tactic to the World Worm as well as to some degree back to Covenant. There may also be subtler methods for Foul to discover that utilize the mental connection he may have on some level with the other two and potentially try to infiltrate their personalities.

End speculative theology weirdness.

I do not remember this quite clearly but I seem to remember that bible also have two creation stories. One is the seven days one, and the other is the garden of eden one.

In any case the two creation stories do not tell us anything about the other story but you could say that they were not mutually exclusive. I.e. the creator made the worm, the worm became the world, etc.

Interesting theology there Nerdanel, couple of impressions:

When the wyrm wakes to signal the end of the world, it will be a complete detruction and annihilation. No mention in the myths of afterlives, heaven, golden cities, etc. So in that respect the Wyrm is more like the Sta-Puft marshmallow man then Christ. But Creator/Wyrm/Foul does make for an interesting trinity. (Where's Neo?)

Also, the greek word that John uses to start his gospel is often translated as "word", "book", or even "Bible" in some very loose translations, but the greek logos really just means "truth" (from whence we get logic). There is no connotation of a written truth, just truth. So there is no direct connection with word/wyrd/worm (how'd you get that umlaut?).

There is a dragon in the Revelation of John (not the same John by the way, there is absolutely no eveidence to support common authorship except tradition, and plenty of textual, stylistic, and grammar evidence to suggest two independent authors). As well as seven headed sea-beasts (Rome), whores (Babylon), and numerically coded beasts (Nero). Did we ever learn any Land end-times myths other than just "the Wyrm wakes up and trashes the place"?

The creation story in Genesis is indeed told twice. Most scholars attribute this to the comingling of two different ancient stories/texts. In the one man and woman are made at the same time, the other has the familiar Adam's rib stuff. The order of exactly what is made when is slighty different as well. This is paralleled in the Noah story, there are two accounts of how many animals to take. One simply says two of everything, the other says "seven of the clean beasts" - so there would be some to sacrifice afterwards. Again, comingling and later editing of two separate earlier texts.

Of course the obvious Christ figure is TC, sacrificing himself in the end (but returning as a spiritual being) to save everyone else. If you want another trinity, how about Creator/TC/Linden? Linden as the Holy Sprit, breathing life into the Land, healing, comforting..

Do we have any idea of the origin of the Rahnyn?

SS

One of the more vexing parts of the Chronicles for me. But you know, not everyone believes Mhoram's creator myth. Also, the Elohim are FAR from reliable - although that worm thingee certainly seems to exist (unless they were lying about that too, and Covenant caused something else at the One Tree).

Maybe they are BOTH wrong, and SRD will come up with another creation myth in the next series.

just look at our world; how many creation theories do we have? it only makes SRD's story more "alive" that there are two - not mutually exclusive - myths afoot
it is still nice, that "religion" as it is is absent from that world, just as from Middle Earth

Talking about the biblical "Word" as described in John's gospel:

As I understand, the Word is very similar to the Wurd in the chronicles, "the word was with god and the word was god" - a method of describing the intangible paradox of godliness??

Strikes me as very akin to the Elohim.

So it wasn't really a word in the lexographical (?? ) sense of things at all.

As for all the contradictions in the Bible - what do you expect? It was written thousands of years ago where consistency and accuracy probably weren't top of the list.

I agree, different accounts of creation in the chronicles make for realistic texture, one of SRD's acclaimed strenghts

...certainly gave me a lot to think about. True, there is no formal eschatology in The Chronicles. So in that sense, I suppose it would be a stretch to compare the Würm to the Christ of the New Testament coming in judgment to bring about the annihilation of creation (which, according to the Bible will then be recreated).

Nevertheless there are hints in The Chronicles. For instance, the Dead do make appearances and seem to have some sort of afterlife although it is not clearly explained. Simply because the Creator does not reveal his intentions for his creation does not meant he has none.

Frankly it is somewhat misleading to assert that the Greek word "logos" (as used in the first Century) means "just truth". The following derivations and definitions will shed more light on the meaning of "logos".

The English word "logic" is indeed derived from the Greek word "logos", specifically from the Middle English, from Old French logique, from Latin logica, from Greek logik, (art) of reasoning, logic, feminine of logikos, of reasoning, from logos, reason.

I found these three definitions in a dictionary under the heading "logos."
1. Philosophy: In pre-Socratic philosophy, the principle governing the cosmos, the source of this principle, or human reasoning about the cosmos. Among the Sophists, the topics of rational argument or the arguments themselves. In Stoicism, the active, material, rational principle of the cosmos; nous. Identified with God [note: does not say which god], it is the source of all activity and generation and is the power of reason residing in the human soul.
2. Judaism: In Biblical Judaism, the word of God, which itself has creative power and is God's medium of communication with the human race. In Hellenistic Judaism, a hypostasis associated with divine wisdom.
3. Christianity: In Saint John's Gospel, especially in the prologue (1:1-14), the creative word of God, which is itself God and incarnate in Jesus.

The word "logos" has been thoroughly incorporated into English as an ending which is usually translated "words". Thus we have the "...ologies," anthropology, morphology, biology, sociology, zoology, ecology and so forth. My particular favorite is "philology," or love of words. Of course, "ology" in these words really means an organized, systematic collection of words, not just some random hodge-podge. You could easily substitute the word "learning."

Here's an official definition of philology:
1. Criticism; grammatical learning. [R.] --Johnson.
2. The study of language, especially in a philosophical manner and as a science; the investigation of the laws of human speech, the relation of different tongues to one another, and historical development of languages; linguistic science. Note: Philology comprehends a knowledge of the etymology, or origin and combination of words; grammar, the construction of sentences, or use of words in language; criticism, the interpretation of authors, the affinities of different languages, and whatever relates to the history or present state of languages. It sometimes includes rhetoric, poetry, history, and antiquities.
3. A treatise on the science of language.
(from L. philologia love of learning, interpretation, philology, Gr.: cf. F. philologie)

Given the preponderance of the evidence, it seems clear that first Century Greeks understood "logos" to mean "expression of thought" rather than "just truth." The Greeks had been writing for over 500 years by the time of Christ. There is no reason to believe that first Century Greeks would not have included written expressions of thought in their understanding of logos.

Since I have spent so many words on the word "logos," and since we are getting right to the edge of off topic, I will post my remaining comments on the 'Religion' what is it?, since that seems a more appropriate spot.

- Hearthcoal

You're right Hearthcoal, I put undo emphasis on the "written" word comparing it to the "Wurd". "Logos" does certainly have the connotation of "Word", just not neccessarily written word. God spoke it, it was true. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God."


Given that there is no formal eschatology defined, one wonders what sort of state Kevin was in all those years before Elena brought him back. Just waiting around for the Law of Death to be broken?

None of the creation stories dealt with the origin of man though. There is talk of the initial migration of man from the Southron Wastes (before they were wastes) into the land of the One Forest. But where did they come from originally? Similarly with the Haruchai.

One final point about the Elohim being the Children of the Creator. I'm sure it has been mentioned before, but Elohim is a word for God in Hebrew is it not?



SS

I'd always taken the separate stories of creation as being part of the contradictions of the Land - the fact that the two stories are completely separate, and yet both are shown to be true. In TOT Covenant almost awakens the Worm of the Worlds End, and Linden helps him restrain himself, and in TPTP he has a conversation with the creator, in which he refers to Fouls as his enemy. Of course you then have the Rainbow Children...
If you were to try and fit the three together, I'd say that the Creator made a rainbow, which his children went through and were trapped by. The Worm awoke from it's sleep within the sky that the rainbow sealed (I guess it was already there before...), and began devouring the children. When the Worm finally slept again, the Creator chose to build a world around the worm using the power from the Children within - they are the source of the Earthpower, but possibly not the same as the Elohim (I had thought of the possibility, but the Elohim seem to only be loosely related to the Children). Perhaps the world was created for his children to look down on and hope...
Personally, I don't think we should try to fit the stories together - The Land is full of contradictions.

just one point to make to those who say the two contradicting stories make the books more betterer and like our world 'n stuff....We have a whole slew of creation myths, true, but none of the starters of said myths were A) Earthpower incarnate or B) people who had spoken to the Creator DOCUMENTEDLY.
I dunno. The two myths just bug me a little.
I reallllly wonder what happens to Land people when they die too...and also, why is the Land considered so differently from everywhere else in that Earth? Does Bhrathairealm have earthpower? What powers Sandgorgons if they don't? *have to read further*

Does Abraham spare Issac or sacrifice him? Christianity/Islam...

Does Abraham spare Issac or sacrifice him? Christianity/Islam...

WhaHuh?!?

Are you saying that in Islam Yaweh didn't stop him?

Most interesting take on the Abraham/Issac story I ever read was in the sci-fi book "Hyperion" by Dan Simons. To make a long story short, there is a Rabi in the story who has studied all the angles to the story most of his life, then it turns out he has to make the same choice. But his conclusion with Abraham was that God wasn't testing Abraham, Abraham was testing God. In so much that Abraham was thinking, "if you make me go through with this, you are not worthy of my worship and devotion."

This book also contains one of the saddest couple of pages ever printed. Everyone, everyone I know who has read this has said they had to just stop and put the book down for a moment to collect themselves.

How does the Abraham story relate to Covenant just giving Foul his ring?

SS

That is true and that is the fundamental demarcation of of both religions...ps that was very heavy duty in Hyperion...

member251 wrote:I'd always taken the separate stories of creation as being part of the contradictions of the Land - the fact that the two stories are completely separate, and yet both are shown to be true.

You're brilliant!

I can't help drawing a parallel between the Worm and Ungoliante in the Silmarillion; the latter also is of unclear origin, came from Outside, from Cúma The Void and her sole intention is to devour light; of course the Worm is something more cosmic and I have a feeling It is far more powerful as either the Creator or LF; or at least It is so different from them that it cannot be conquered by ordinary means.

That's an excellent parallel aman! Even w/offspring...Shelob and the Nicor...just truly excellent! *claps enthusiastically* I mean, I love that...But I'm thru TOT now and I'm starting to question my last question a lil more...why is the outside so dang different from the Land? Bhrathair is well on it's way to becoming...well, us. Elohimdemesne I will not speculate on, except to remind you that Findail is a bitch in general, and is my bitch in particular. Findail bashing scores more points w/me than Linden bashing does for a lot of y'all.
They don't have lore! They burn stuff and kill people! So the Land used to be like that...when does the revelation for Bhrathair come? And for those nameless other lands?

Different peoples have different customs. Look at how differently people in different parts of our world live, and how different their cultures, beliefs, customs, and languages are. I would be more surprised if the people living across the sea were LIKE the people of the Land rather then different. It makes that world more realistic to me.