Kevin's Watch

"Calm Horizons, you are Amnion. I'm human." The
most irreconcilable of differences. "How can I trust you?"

"Because we are Amnion, Warden Dios," Vestabule
replied flatly. "Unlike humankind, we bargain openly.
Also we fulfill our bargains."

The Amnion claim to not understand falseness or treachery. Their bargains are not strictly open, but they are very literal.

Is this interpretation the result of a cultural gap too wide to bridge, or are the Amnion more devious than they would have humanity believe?

I think they are devious, lawyering, SOBs.
Take for example the use of the near gap drive they gave the humans. They are never purposely false, and I am sure if they were asked before the trade was made, "Is this a normal drive you are giving us?", they likely would have told the truth.
I think their deviousness lies in what they do not say.

Indeed. Perhaps they have read The Monkey's Paw?

Don't just read the fine print, but consider any possible meaning of the words.

They would make excellent lawyers.

suddenly images flow through my mind:
"Judgement at Nuremburg"... Maxamillion Schell's role goes to an Amnion:
... and he gets off all the Nazis!

I don't think they're devious... I think that their train of thinking is too profound for them to be merely devious. Oh, of course we as humans would like to think that they are evil and malevolent... but that is only because of humankinds fear of anything other than itself...

You don't think the Amnion are devious, Revan? Then explain the gap drive components that they sold to Nick Succorso. That was not 'bargaining openly'. There was no 'mutual satisfaction of requirements' within a light-year of that deal.

As for 'humankind's fear of anything other than itself', it doesn't exist. We don't inject mutagens into every other form of life to turn them all into human beings. We even live with non-human life forms: we domesticate them; we keep them as pets. To the Amnion, the very existence of any other form of life is utterly intolerable. Humans can be xenophobic, but that degree of xenophobia is unknown in our species. It is beyond even the furthest extremes of clinical insanity.

Variol Farseer wrote:You don't think the Amnion are devious, Revan? Then explain the gap drive components that they sold to Nick Succorso. That was not 'bargaining openly'. There was no 'mutual satisfaction of requirements' within a light-year of that deal.

As for 'humankind's fear of anything other than itself', it doesn't exist. We don't inject mutagens into every other form of life to turn them all into human beings. We even live with non-human life forms: we domesticate them; we keep them as pets. To the Amnion, the very existence of any other form of life is utterly intolerable. Humans can be xenophobic, but that degree of xenophobia is unknown in our species. It is beyond even the furthest extremes of clinical insanity.

You don't think that humans would be petrified if we discovered another species that equals or supasses our own intelligence. I'm not talking of dogs or cats when I refer to the kind of fear humans have of anything different to itself. I mean dogs aren't likely to surpass us as Earths most powerful race, they can barely fetch a stick without proper teaching.

"Then explain the gap drive components that they sold to Nick Succorso."

You forget, the Amnion knew that Nick was a cop (Milos told them), playing a game, and most likely cheating them in coming to Enablement; so in the minds of the Amnioni, it was acceptable; seen as they would view Nick status as a UMCP agent as the reason he came to Enablement, therefore to cause them trouble.

As for 'humankind's fear of anything other than itself', it doesn't exist.

Not true, have you forgotten slavery? Enslaved hundreds of thousands of people just because their skin was a different color from theirs...You really think humans don't fear things that are different from themselves, to both internal and external differencies?

To the Amnion, the very existence of any other form of life is utterly intolerable.

They cannot help it

They are made to behave that way because of their genetic code. It does not occur to them that they are doing the wrong or right thing (If such concepts exist among them) they are merely behaving the only way they can. To list such actions as merely devious is a simpleminded description on what drives them.

Revan wrote:You don't think that humans would be petrified if we discovered another species that equals or supasses our own intelligence. I'm not talking of dogs or cats when I refer to the kind of fear humans have of anything different to itself. I mean dogs aren't likely to surpass us as Earths most powerful race, they can barely fetch a stick without proper teaching.

You're beating a strawman, Revan. The case has never happened, so we have no way of knowing. But given the number of people who want to believe there are real live aliens in our midst, in spite of a glaring lack of credible evidence, I'd say there are considerable grounds for believing you're wrong.

In any case, you look damn silly proclaiming a future event as a proven fact and basing an argument upon it.

You forget, the Amnion knew that Nick was a cop (Milos told them), playing a game, and most likely cheating them in coming to Enablement; so in the minds of the Amnioni, it was acceptable; seen as they would view Nick status as a UMCP agent as the reason he came to Enablement, therefore to cause them trouble.

Then if they were not 'devious', they should have refused to deal with him at all. Is it so hard to say, 'Buzz off, copper'?

Not true, have you forgotten slavery? Enslaved hundreds of thousands of people just because their skin was a different color from theirs...You really think humans don't fear things that are different from themselves, to both internal and external differencies?

Slavery was not based on the masters' fear of the slaves. It was based on greed, which is an entirely different motivation.

And in fact, the vast majority of the slaves in human history were of the same race as their owners. That argument holds no water at all.

They cannot help it

They are made to behave that way because of their genetic code. It does not occur to them that they are doing the wrong or right thing (If such concepts exist among them) they are merely behaving the only way they can. To list such actions as merely devious is a simpleminded description on what drives them.

I'm not saying the Amnion are devious because they hate other life forms. I'm saying that they are devious because they claim to deal honestly with humans, but continually violate or pervert their agreements.

In any case, we know that the Amnion necessarily fear and hate humans; we are told so repeatedly in the book. Humans, as such, don't necessarily fear and hate the Amnion; they fear and hate being turned into Amnion, which is a pretty legitimate thing not to want, if you ask me.

And yes, the Amnion could help it if they wanted to. They have the technology to radically change an organism's DNA. Why not give themselves mutagens that would allow them to chill out and accept the existence of non-Amnioni life? It's a big universe, and they're going to have to deal with it sometime.

You're so right; how utterly blind I have been.

Warden in ADAHGA:

We try to get what we want by gunfire. The Amnion trade for
it. And they always keep their bargains because they know
that otherwise they won't be trusted, which means they
won't be able to trade effectively.

It makes sense that they would honor their bargains with the UMCP. But why give Nick the components on the assumption that he was a cop? Even if they believed he was a UMCP representative come to Enablement to cause trouble, that would practically be an act of war.

To the Amnion, the very existence of any other form of life is utterly intolerable. said Variol Farseer in an earlier post.

i'm not sure i think this is true. i remember someone saying that humanity was intolerable for the Amnion because humanity is deceptive
which is antithetical to the Amnion. other than that, i don't remember any statement as broad as "any other life form" being mentioned. we don't really know how the Amnion would deal with another life form as there are only TWO in the Gap Cycle, human and amnion.

that, i understood, was why they were looking for a way to imprint an Amnion mind in a human specimen. experiments that produced such results as Marc Vestibule were only useful in treating with humans as long as it was necessary to do so, not the end result the Amnion were hoping to achieve. and remember it was only Vestibule that was invested with deciciveness. because he retained enough humanity to be able to be deceptive and thus deal with humans in a way Amnion can't.

so...i guess i don't think the Amnion ARE deceptive. but us humans always do that thing, what's it called, anthropomorphize. investing other species with human characteristics. and we can't conceive of a species that doesn't lie. even tho we're surrounded by them. (all other life on earth BUT humans!!) so we believe they are lying even when they aren't. we consider giving the components to Nick somehow "devious" but couldn't call it "tactical"?

we can't conceive of a species that doesn't lie. even tho we're surrounded by them. (all other life on earth BUT humans!!)

That's not quite the case, as there are many species on Earth that lie, not neccessarily by choice, but intrinsicly. Some do it for protection - the Viceroy looks like a Monarch to keep from being eaten. Others lie to eat - the tounge of a snapping turtle looks like a nice juicy worm.

Deception is a way of life on this planet. It is only "natural" that Humans, who can control practically every other behavior that other species do automatically, can choose to lie or not on any given occasion.

* edited to add quote for context

Lucimay wrote:To the Amnion, the very existence of any other form of life is utterly intolerable. said Variol Farseer in an earlier post.

i'm not sure i think this is true. i remember someone saying that humanity was intolerable for the Amnion because humanity is deceptive
which is antithetical to the Amnion. other than that, i don't remember any statement as broad as "any other life form" being mentioned.

I believe what VF means is that any life form which is genetically unlike Amnion is intolerable; their genetic imperative demands the amnion genetic imperialism. It's not because humanity is deceptive that they do not like humanity, but that humanity is not Amnion.

Variol Farseer wrote:Humans, as such, don't necessarily fear and hate the Amnion; they fear and hate being turned into Amnion, which is a pretty legitimate thing not to want, if you ask me.

Isn't that the same thing? I mean, humanity fears the Amnion for what they represent - the threat of mutation.




Great posts, people. Will comment on them later.

We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.



I wonder which came first, Amnion or Borg?!

Creator wrote:We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.



I wonder which came first, Amnion or Borg?!

Cybermen - Star Trek borrowed alot from them (even the resistance line and transformation/assimilation stuff). SRD may have been influenced, but the Borg aren't the most original of ideas either.

WOW LM. I googled Cyberman - very interesting.

[Costumes a little cheesey but that seems to be part of the charm of Dr. Who!]

Loremaster wrote:

Creator wrote:We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.



I wonder which came first, Amnion or Borg?!

Cybermen - Star Trek borrowed alot from them (even the resistance line and transformation/assimilation stuff). SRD may have been influenced, but the Borg aren't the most original of ideas either.

It's all come from bees and ants, you know. The "hive" mentality. The 'sameness of purpose'.

Elfgirl wrote:

Loremaster wrote:

Creator wrote:We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.



I wonder which came first, Amnion or Borg?!

Cybermen - Star Trek borrowed alot from them (even the resistance line and transformation/assimilation stuff). SRD may have been influenced, but the Borg aren't the most original of ideas either.

It's all come from bees and ants, you know. The "hive" mentality. The 'sameness of purpose'.

Yes, but it is not too far-fetched to think that perhaps a creator of the Borg may have read the GAP at some time and been influenced. I wonder,,has SRD weighed in on this?

A Gunslinger wrote:Yes, but it is not too far-fetched to think that perhaps a creator of the Borg may have read the GAP at some time and been influenced. I wonder,,has SRD weighed in on this?

Call me the GI researcher. Here was the best I could find on short notice:
More important:

Allen: Two questions

1. What scienti-fictional works are ante-cedents to the Gap Cycle? I've joked that the Gap is Star Wars Goes To Hell but I was wondering what stories or shows affected your great work.
...
1) I suppose I would have to mention "Dune," "Star Trek," and E. E. Smith's "Lensman" series. Also Asimov's original "Foundation" books. Blish's "Cities in Flight". But those are unconscious influences. I wasn't *thinking* about any of them when I wrote the GAP books.
...
(04/19/2006)

So there's SRD's opinion on it.
Less Important:

...
For the sake of completeness, I should mention that there *are* other roads. "Work for hire" is one. I'm no authority on such subjects. But as I understand it, in "work for hire" a writer produces a novel according to the specifications of a particular publisher; the publisher pays a flat fee for ownership of the novel; and after that the publisher gets everything and the author gets nothing (usually not even the right to put his/her name on the book). Writing "Harlequin Romances" would be one example of "work for hire." I'm told this can be fairly lucrative--*if* you happen to be good a producing work which exactly meets the publisher's specifications.

(And there *is* a middle ground. Writing "Star Wars" and "Star Trek" novels, for example, closely resembles "work for hire"; but the writer does get royalties--and does get to put his/her name on the book.)
...
(08/10/2005)

Other than that I don't see much that's applicable, accept he seems to think the person who played seven of nine (is that the borg girl? I didn't watch much star trek) would make a good sorus.

Thanks, H! You are A-OK!