Kevin's Watch

Has anyone considered the possibility of an event happening that could undo the new Staff of Law,thus splitting Vain and Findail once again into two seperate beings?And what would be the fall out of an angry Findail and a purposeless Vain?

<shudder>

YaY! any plot line involving Vain would be amazing!

A broken Staff?
Hmmm....
Perhaps that is the best way to solve the problem with a certain crazy Elohim recently released from his appointed duty?
I would bet that Findail wouldn't mind.
There was no Staff of Law back when Kastanessen was running amok (no, not that Amok! ) perhaps it would be enough to heal "the fires in the North" or whatever Kasty was responsible for.
And then Findail gets a free pass.
Might need to carve some runes on that staff to make sure he does what he's supposed to!

INteresting, SBG. I don't see it happening, though. IIRC, Vain and Findail didn't just add their vitality to the new SoL, they merged their entireties to become the Staff, with Linden supplying the knowledge of health and vitality. I don't know that such a creation could be undone.

While the SoL may be susceptible to destruction, I don't think that destruction would undo the theurgy that bound Vain and Findail, thus releasing them again as their former selves. I think their essences, like the SoL itself, would simply cease to exist.

"NEKRIMAH"

Like I said,random thought.If Linden + white gold had the power to create,then I see no reason why Linden + white gold would not have the power to unmake,either by manipulation,an accident,or as a noble act(we have hints that the new staff is somehow flawed).Sure,it is assumed that the staff lacks certain runes of power,thus causing it to be somehow incomplete.But we all know that SRD likes to throw an occasional curve ball-and that would be an excellent one don't you agree.

I never took the lack of runes to be a sign of incompleteness. It wasn't taken and carved from the One Tree; it was moulded with Linden's health-sense as the wood itself was created; the "runes" are inherent in the Staff. That's how I read it.

I also don't believe that there's a flaw in the new Staff; as far as I recall, the main argument was that that's how Kevin's Dirt etc. were able to be produced. BUT as far as we know, the Staff essentially didn't exist for about 2500 years prior to Runes, since Linden went back and took it 'out of existence' until she came back to the present. So it's hardly ever been used, and the people using it don't really have much training with it. It's no wonder it's not particularly potent... yet.

And the argument about Findail being flawed - not being described as pure white - whereas Vain is pure black... I don't think that's significant. I don't think that Findail was flawed; he was just afraid. The Elohim like to consider themselves above everything else, and are very arrogant. But I think that when faced with what is essentially death (transformation into something else, be it the Colossus, the Staff or a cap for the fire in the north), they're proved to be no different from any other sentient beings; they feel anxiety and fear. Findail was desperate to hold onto his existence until the very end, IIRC... didn't Vain have to grab onto him or something and refuse to let go? But he IS Earthpower incarnate nonetheless; I think the Staff is essentially "good".

I've got slightly sidetracked here, but I'll keep going anyway. We know that the Elohim have visited the Land, and talked to at least Mithil Stonedown. They're definitely getting more involved with the world outside of Elemesnedene. Combined with Anele's fiery possessor, I think it means we'll see more of the Elohim in the Last Chronicles.

I'm reminded of SRD's comment about Foul no longer being an archetypal bad-guy-for-the-sake-of-it. He has a motivation for his Despite. Perhaps we'll also see deeper into the mindset of the Elohim, beyond their outward aloof arrogance.

I very much doubt that Linden could undo the union of Vain and Findail; they were too closely merged to be separated in any meaningful way. The only way to do it would be to 'run the film backwards' and reverse the process of union itself, and that, I suspect, would violate the Law of Time. An action, once done, cannot be undone, though its results can be changed by an opposite action. In this case, I doubt that there is an opposite action.

Entropy (to use one of SRD's favourite words at the moment) really is a one-way street.

The Somberlain wrote:I never took the lack of runes to be a sign of incompleteness. It wasn't taken and carved from the One Tree; it was moulded with Linden's health-sense as the wood itself was created; the "runes" are inherent in the Staff. That's how I read it.

I also don't believe that there's a flaw in the new Staff; as far as I recall, the main argument was that that's how Kevin's Dirt etc. were able to be produced. BUT as far as we know, the Staff essentially didn't exist for about 2500 years prior to Runes, since Linden went back and took it 'out of existence' until she came back to the present. So it's hardly ever been used, and the people using it don't really have much training with it. It's no wonder it's not particularly potent... yet.

I agree. I also seem to remember that in WGW, when the Staff is completed, it is said that the new Staff didn't need runes because it was a living thing.

But hasn't the GI mentioned somewhere that the new staffs lack of runes is significant in some way?

--A

I've no doubt that it's significant; I just don't think it makes it "incomplete".

Aaah, interesting distinction.

--A

If we suppose the runes are meant to bind the Staff to acceptable expressions of the Law, or something, there is also the point that both Linden and Covenant received runes of their own on their clothing. In addition to the simple blessing theory, it may be that the Earth was trying to avoid the danger to itself that wild magic presented and direct its power along more suitable lines. However clothes can be taken off...

I think a runeless Staff may be just as powerful as it would be with runes, but not as tied to the Law as one might expect and much more easily warped to serve something other than the original Law. I have this horrible vision in my head of Lord Foul being able to wield the Staff of Law personally since the Staff no longer harms him.

Avatar wrote:But hasn't the GI mentioned somewhere that the new staffs lack of runes is significant in some way?

I believe the significance of the runes is that it says something of the Staff weilder(s).

Runes are an expression of lore, and lore comes from years and years of using and researching and exploring Law with the Staff. The kind of time that causes a magical instrument to achieve spiritual unity with what it utilizes - for the Staff to become one with the Law.

So the significance of the lack of runes is that the Staff is still in a 'hardly been used' stage of it's existence. There has been no Council or Clave dedicated to aquiring the lore of Earthpower and Law. And the Staff has not yet become a critical component of Earthpower and Law.

Nerdanel wrote:If we suppose the runes are meant to bind the Staff to acceptable expressions of the Law, or something, there is also the point that both Linden and Covenant received runes of their own on their clothing. In addition to the simple blessing theory, it may be that the Earth was trying to avoid the danger to itself that wild magic presented and direct its power along more suitable lines. However clothes can be taken off...

I think a runeless Staff may be just as powerful as it would be with runes, but not as tied to the Law as one might expect and much more easily warped to serve something other than the original Law. I have this horrible vision in my head of Lord Foul being able to wield the Staff of Law personally since the Staff no longer harms him.

Not so sure about that; it still harms the Waynhim because of its embodiment of Law; surely it would have the same effect on Foul?

Also, the part about clothing: I don't recall anything about that (not that I'm saying it didn't happen, I was racing through WGW to find out the conclusion and probably missed it)... could you clarify?

I think there is a possibility that as Linden used the Staff to heal several Waynhim and ur-viles, the Staff will after a few repeats learn to regard Waynhim and ur-viles all fine and dandy and stop harming them. We'll see.

As for the clothing, that isn't from WGW. In Runes Linden's jeans got curiously marked by the grass as she walked through it. Later when she washed her clothes in Revelstone she found that the rune-like marks had become permanent parts of the fabric. In Lord Foul's Bane Covenant got marked by the moss while riding through the half-sentient Morinmoss forest.

Now that I think of it, I wonder if there is a sentient One Lawn (or whatever it should be called) to replace and emulate the One Forest. There is something going on with grass in the book, and a lot of things thought dead and gone seem to be coming back.

Ah yes, I do remember the Morinmoss Effect. I was puzzled by the way that SRD seemed to emphasise the indelebility, but then nothing really came of it. So maybe that will turn out to be significant.

So you'd consider the Staff to be almost conscious; "learning" how to apply Law as it's used more and more? I quite like that theory
I'd just considered it to, by its nature, uphold natural Law as it is and always has been - no Sunbane, things being healthy etc. - but lack of use meant that it just did so weakly (for instance, Linden can only clear a small patch of Kevin's Dirt at the moment, by Shall Pass Utterly, maybe she'll be able to remove all of it), and at the same time was fairly independent of the abstract concept of Law; with use of the Staff, "Law" would recognise the Staff as a part of itself - the two would merge themselves, each supporting the other.

When it happens you I won't say I told you so.

Referencing an earlier post about Lord Foul wielding the Staff of Law:

Don't you think that if he COULD use it he would have found it and taken it for himself? Lord Foul could have performed summonings with it much sooner and obtained another white gold ring from someone else.

Come to think of it, how *did* Lord Foul accomplish the summoning without the Staff?