Kevin's Watch

This thread is not about proof. This thread is not about comparisons of faiths. This thread is not about swaying anyone to another's faith. This thread is not about convincing someone to believe.

This thread is about how your faith has affected you.

Some people gain a sense of comfort from a belief system; others, a sense of belonging. Some people turn to faith for strength in a crisis, or learn faith by weathering a storm. There are those who look to faith for guidance. So many different people with so many different faiths with so many different reasons for their faith; it is fascinating to me, especially since I do not share in faith as some do.

What is is about your faith that draws you to it? If you haven't always had faith, how has it (if at all) changed you? Are you a different person because of faith? Are you the same person, but with a different direction, perhaps?

What is the appeal of your faith to you? Would your life really be different without faith?

How has your faith affected your life?

I had faith as a child. It was a child's faith; instilled and never tested. I can't see how it ever effected my life much.

I lost faith in my late teens. It was painful... scary. I was afraid of going to hell for not being afraid to go to hell. I was afraid of a life with no purpose. I invented theologies to fill the gap. I picked scraps of truth out of the religions I knew and scoured books for scraps of truth from religions I didn't.

In my young adulthood (all of ten years ago), I stumbled upon knowledge. A gnosis. Not only did I no longer need my crutches, I found my leg was never broken. The knowledge I gained, though it was so simple and obvious, was greater and more comforting than faith ever was.

I admit there's a lot of things I don't know. I've tried to keep an open mind. It's possible there's a God that exists outside of the system. It's even possible that there is a god or smaller gods (think Neverness) that are a smaller part of the whole. It doesn't seem likely, though. I definately don't have faith in it.

I just know my role in it all, my place. My little piece of the whole that can't be different than what it is. Given a choice, I'd take that knowledge over faith every time.

My faith gives me hope.
Most of my faith is the simple Christian stuff I learned as a kid.

The reward of Heaven for a good life lived.
And the punishment of Hell for the wicked.
The compassion and forgiveness of Jesus.

Small variations of the above keep me from getting too angry or sad.

A good example is when my Mother died.
It was right in front of my eyes.
It was horrible.
The science part of me knew she was gone forever but so was her pain.
The faith part of me. The little fragment that lingers the strongest from childhood tells me that there's a chance, a slight chance that this "Heaven thing" is possible.
If it's the hollywood "clouds with wings Heaven" or the "white light of peace and love Heaven" I don't care.
It doesn't matter.
It's just that little voice no matter how unbelievable that's saying "maybe" that makes it easier.

With my kids, I will try to give them the same foundation that I have.
Something to fall back on when times get tough.
Then they can go from there.

For me it's the strength I gain from the knowledge of knowing I am continuing the line of a system of belief that has been around for 3,000 years or so.

Good topic ur-bane. Let me get my stuff together, and I'll tell you in the morning.

I don't know what I'd have to contribute, as it'd be more like "How Has My Life Affected My Faith," but I'll be interested to see how things progress.

my wife has been my greatest reward for my faith. when the woman before aborted our child my faith kept me going, and brought me to a point where i could forgive myself and her. it brought me back to my family. it brought me to my father, as he lay dying, in the middle of a blizzard so i could take care of him as he died. it has brought me to my community, where i volunteer, donate (food, blood) and try to impact people in a positive way. it brought me to my job, where i try to be an example of how good life can be when lived in faith.

I am hesitant to use the word faith, myself, with myself, that is, because it does not feel to me that it is a matter of faith, but truth. Because I can't point at it, or show it to you, or even claim to have seen IT, "it" must then be naturally commonly regarded as a matter of faith, because if we all saw it together, it would be science.

Growing up, there was no real presence of religion, no more than what you might naturally find in a comprehensive collection of literature anywhere. Books on the supernatural, ancient mysteries, psychic phenomena, contemporary and science fiction, the usual encyclopedia (anyone still buy the books? can you say Encarta? or google? heh), the Bible of course (was it just me, or were Revelations the only good part?), some "alternative" religions and philosophies (I remember a tattered red book of The Rosicrucians, heh. wow) but a strict doctorine and regular Sunday worship was never a part of it. Easter and Christmas may have been mandatory at some point, nothing particularly stringent.

So, I went thru to my teen years, believing that all sorts of things could be possible, went thru the "well, if there was a God, where he is He?", or the famous "How can there be a God with a world like this?". It coulda went either way, I didn't really care, I guess is the point, heh. Dirt was dirt, and the sun went round the moon, yea wow great. Strange kinda, seeing I spent a good deal of my life in the woods and streams, running wild and crazy, "exploring". heh, exploring usually meant "terrorizing the local wildlife", to the point of torture and death, frogs and squirrels, BB guns and Wrist Rocketstm. Then it was shotguns and 30-30's for awhile, but not much, and I almost always ate what I shot, or at least my dog did.

But the "supernatural" and "unexplained phenomena", yea UFO's too, always always fascinated me. But NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, of the "concrete experience" sort, has ever happened to me to enforce my "beliefs" or faith if you will in such things. The usual "gut feelings", "guessing" who it was calling on the phone, etc. Once I had a "wierd dream" that wasn't like any other dream I had, but similar to a way I had heard described. I won't ever bring it out in court, thats for sure. So how do I have such a strong force of faith in a superior being, Creator?

Well, it was the unexplained mysterious stuff. I scoured and compared, scrutinized and strategized, and came up with common similarities between them, things that couldn't just be "explained away" per se. This led me to religion, and I used the same approach (it's just what I do, I guess, "analyze"), and began to see the same sets of similarities not only among themselves, but the occult and unexplained too. I then proceeded to venture that there were too many similarities between them all, and too many of them altogether, not just from "credible sources" and there are many many of those on the "supernatural". It's more "common" than most of you might think in the general populace right up to the "elitegroup", that all have reported "strange" experiences.

This includes "miracles" too. Then I wondered, if all of this can happen "accidentily miraculously", then why couldn't a miracle or "experience" happen on purpose? If people were being subjected to something, it would naturally allow that you could "subject yourself" to the experience? "reproduce" it, if you will. Things like out of body experiences and astral projection, lucid dreaming and near death are good examples of this. They all are talking about the same thing, yet we treat them differently, and some, well, treat it in another way too . I say it happens too much to be dismissed, and the regularity of similarity thruout the history of "all" types of phenomena, religious included, is too prevelant to ignore.

So what has faith done for me in my life? Well, I learned that there was more to life than what I was seeing, that "everything" would be clear to me once I learned to "see" in the proper manner required to behold "reality" in it's basest form, humanly perceptable basest form, that is. I guess that would be what my faith is, that there is more to life, simply because there has to be. Too many people have seen too many things for this not to be so, and they all point in the same direction, and all require to be approached in the same manner.

So faith has kept me looking, kept me questioning, kept me analyzing and testing, determining to the best of my ability to adhere to the preconcieved and firm theory of logic and reason, similar yet distinct tools of intelligence. I may even venture faith has more in common with reason than reason does with logic, logic which sticks to science "religiously". We have faith that there is still an unknown universe, and even that we don't know for sure. Supposition is a good word I like, heh. A reasonable one, that is. Like God, heh.

But it boils down to me as; it doesn't have to be any more complicated than it appears to be. The likelihood of sheer perfection of form and function, and the ability to percieve it, could come from a mass of random nothingness is like saying a bucket of sand could throw itself in the air, and have it land in an exact replica of the Magic Castle. To me, it's as simple as that. To the bizillionteenth power. Not faith, to me, sense. And I go further, and say to myself that if there IS a God, and there MUST be, because the alternative is even more preposterous, there must be a way to find Him, or "see" Him, without dying first of course. Thats what I've been doing, incredibly lazily and haphazardly, but doggedly nonetheless.

But too often I see faith being regarded as a crutch, or a burden, or a fear, and that doesn't make sense to me either. If God was going to put me on a planet, leave me to learn and develop from other humans who had no idea what was going on either, and then hold me accountable for things I did that I didn't even know about, without any direct word from Him? well, too bad about me huh? Thats not fair, and if it is that way, well I'm screwed anyway so I'll just keep doing what I'm doing for as long as I can. I don't worry about it, or try to please anyone, or Him. If anything, I want to impress Him with my audacity, backed with ability of course, but my ultimate goal is to SURPRISE Him!!!! WOW! Give Him something He wasn't expecting. There is no Higher goal than that for me, and thats where my faith squarely lies I guess. That I can even conceive to make such an manuever, much less attempt it, is the ultimate "test" of faith to me, and it's ultimate definition.

While I have respect for faith, I think we need to define our terms. Sometimes, it becomes a bit like this parody from The Onion illustrates:

Bush To Increase Funding For Hope-Based Initiatives

November 23, 2005 | Issue 41•47

WASHINGTON—President Bush announced today that he will sign a bill providing an additional $2.8 billion for private organizations that emphasize the importance of hoping for change.
Enlarge ImageBush To Increase Funding For Hope-Based Initiatives

Bush presents his plan to fund organizations that hope for change.

"This bill acknowledges the immeasurable role of hope in envisioning a better world for everyone," Bush said during a press conference. "Starting today, I ask all Americans to hope together as one nation that the difficult problems that grip our nation will go away someday."

The president's move will help direct federal funds to such groups as the National Hope Foundation, which has been hoping for a cure for cancer for nearly two decades.

"There are many in our country who are without hope," Bush said. "Yet there are many respected organizations in America that are actively hoping things get better. This program will assist these organizations in obtaining government grants, which will allow them to continue the important hoping that must be done."

Among the programs likely to receive funding is Project Hope You Don't Get Sick, a non-profit organization hoping that over 45 million Americans receive the proper health care they need.

Dream Job United, another likely recipient, is a widely acclaimed program in which the ill-prepared and uneducated are trained to hope for job interviews at top companies.

Another project slated for assistance in is a Louisiana-based teen-pregnancy reduction program, in which volunteers hope teens abstain from intercourse.

Under the bill, wish-based initiatives will also be eligible for increased funding. Dozens of independent wishful-thinking foundations, such as America Wishes Things Were Better, expect to receive grants to fund distribution of pennies, wishbones, and birthday candles.

Those with wishes and hopes applauded the president's move, saying that faith alone cannot rectify the nation's social ills.

"Faith-based problem-solving is noble, but we should not discount the power of hope," said veteran hoper Howard Thorndike, who heads the Please Oh Please Institute, a Houston-based wish tank. "'Hail Mary' strategies, for example, are a part of the fabric of our nation, from the football field to the boardroom, and our government ignores such traditions at its peril."

Bush echoed Thorndike's sentiments. "As your president, I have seen firsthand what hoping can do," he said. "I have heard stories of decent people trapped under piles of rubble, and I have hoped that they would be rescued. And eventually, many were. Recently, powerful storms and destructive hurricanes ravaged some of our great cities. I hope that you will join me in wishing that we do not get hit by any more of those."

Bush added: "Laura and I hope every night that good things will happen for our great country. My fellow Americans, I call on you to do the same."

Why do these organisations need money? Wishing is free.

As I say all over the place, I don't have any faith. I would like there to be some great justice, some sort of retribution or reward for the "bad" and the "good" (on whose terms?) but I don't see any reason that there has to be.

I was raised a Catholic, did my catechism, first communion, went along, never really worried much about it. Not even sure I can lay claim to that child's faith that Syl mentioned. Along with, and perhaps because of, that, my own "loss" of faith, or at least suspension of belief wasn't a particularly traumatic or noteworthy experience.

I can't even point to a specific time or event, except I was about 15 when I realised that I didn't believe in this proscriptive and prejudiced god at all.

I spent the next 5 years or so dabbling in different religions, (or at least studying them comparitively), and enjoyed the ideas of Zen Buddhism, and various brands of paganism, amongst others. (I own a copy of pretty much every scripture from the Bhagavad Gita and the Tibetean Book of the Dead to The Book of Mormon. )

My interest in archeology, ancient civilisations, and particularly their mythologies, eventually led me to the conclusion that religion is a sociological construct, (along with pretty much everything else we take for granted), and was true only insofar as people believed in it.

Beyond the occasional (or not so occasional) debate about it, my lack of faith doesn't affect my life at all.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest to think of our extreme insignificance, or our totally improbability. If anything, I like the idea, because, with all that, here we are.

--A

But what is Faith? Is it hope? Is it the belief in a specific set of religious teachings? Is it really just "the belief in things unseen"? Is it a sense that everything will work out for the best? What is it we're talking about here?

you tell us, Plissken. I think that's the point. whatever it means to you.

I have faith that you are right.

Seriously, if we're talking about how some self-defined emotion, belief or mental construct has shaped our lives, I'll just say that my belief that I'll have another beer has served me well for almost two decades.

I don't think we can narrow it down to a specific set of religious teachings, but that's usually the general idea.

I'd make it much simpler: Accepting something as true, without any evidence.

--A

WoW! These are some excellent posts, gentlemen! Please forgive me if it takes a while to absorb the content and reply in kind....I am still not awake enough to digest everything said here. But thank you all for your participation so far.

I will be back when I am more awake. There are some things that have been brought up that I'd like to discuss further.

And Lady.

--A

My apologies. I scrolled way too fast to the bottom of the page.

Avatar wrote:I don't think we can narrow it down to a specific set of religious teachings, but that's usually the general idea.

I'd make it much simpler: Accepting something as true, without any evidence.

--A

So the question is: "How has accepting something as true, without any evidence, affected my life?" Is everyone comfortable with this definition?

There are other definitions for "faith," BTW. It can mean "a specific religious denomination," as in "We belong to the Muslim faith," or it can be an expression of personal honor, as in "I have kept faith with you regarding our agreement."

Philosophy is fun!

NP on my behalf.

Am I the only female who has postd in this thread?

My faith is in the idea that if I continue to learn, experience, and try to adapt, my life will get better.
That my problems, both mental and physical, can be conquered. That I can give my life meaning through force of will and force of love. That life can be worth living for.

If I can stop one heart from breaking
I shall not live in vain...


If I can ease one life the aching, or cool one pain,
Or help one fainting bird,
Into it's nest again,
I shall not live in vain...


If I can mend one broken heart,
And give it love infinite,
Enough to stop it from shedding tears again,
I shall not live in vain...


If I can convince even one heart,
Tha yes, life is beautiful,
In spite of all the pain,
I'm sure; I shall not live in vain...