Kevin's Watch

Okay, I just bought a house and I'm broke, so I gotta gets me some WGDs. Fantasy money is better than no money at all, I always say. I only hope I can type my thoughts legibly, because it's freezing in my studio. Curse you, Big Oil!

Ahem. Reading Runes, I was struck by the trend toward decency in the Real World. The New England Towne o' Leper Oppression, striken by collective remorse, has built a hospital for nuts. Linden is surrounded by helpful volunteers -- the nanny, the receptionist, the poor red-shirted security guy (people even do her lawn work! I SO wish I was a heroic Staff Wielding Land-Saver lifesaving doctor lady, so people would do my yard).

One of the things I found oppressive in the first and second Chrons was the unrelieved nastiness of everybody in Covenant's "real" world. Joan dumped him. The neighbors recoiled. The sherrif persecuted him energetically. Covenant's lawyer only went to bat for him out of conscientious disgust.

And this was a global epidemic of crumminess, made plain by Hile Troy's complementary POV: the guy had a presumably-lucrative gig as a strategic military consultant, but as far as apartments went, he was "pretty much at the mercy of what (he) could get," and ended up living in a fire trap. There were no outreach organizations in Washington DC that could have helped the guy find a decent place to live? Gah.

It was plain that SRD wanted to make the Real W as grim and wicked as possible, to make the Land a paradise by contrast, but I found it tiring. Land: thronging with upright, heroic, faithful, brave, selfless, thrifty dogooders. Reality: peopled by scumbuckets. Period.

So I was cheered to find a few good real-world folk in Runes. In fact the whole Reality Cast is virtuous, with the glaring exception of Law Enforcement and the Foul-possessed. On the other hand, the Land's cast is pretty lavish of self righteous jerks. Remember The One Tree? Back then, you had to sail the Sunbirth Sea to find arrogant creeps, but as of Runes, the Land is crawling with them.

I'm wondering if this about the author becoming more sure of himself and willing to play with nuance. OR (roll speculation):

It's SRD's way of sewing everything up and bringing the cycle to a close. It's circular, yo, like a ring! I think the bald Reality=Wicked/Land=Good dichotomy was a young writer's ploy, but the mature SRD is using it to his advantage. And I think by showing so many Reality characters as good, upright people, he's implying that Covenant's sacrificial death redeemed his own world -- whatever happens to the Land.

I've got a bad feeling about the Land's chances, myself, so I suspect I'll have to content myself with that.

Good post, jwaneeta. Sorry about your money and heating troubles. Sent you 3000 WGDs -- hope that lets you get something decent in the Shop, though I haven't looked in there myself for a while now. (Alternative: just play the casino...it's a get-virtually-rich-quick scheme around here that seems to work. )

I have to say I'm not entirely sure that the "real" world is any more decent than it was in the previous books. Yes, the townspeople act decently toward Linden, but then, she's "normal" after all: she's not suffering from leprosy, or some other "sinful" affliction. Still, good points you've made.

matrixman waxed bountiful, so:

Sent you 3000 WGDs -- hope that lets you get something decent in the Shop

I'm rich! I'm HAPPY MISER!

Thanks!

(Alternative: just play the casino...it's a get-virtually-rich-quick scheme around here that seems to work. )

I shall heed you. I bought a scratch card, but it's just sitting there. *emo tear*

I have to say I'm not entirely sure that the "real" world is any more decent than it was in the previous books. Yes, the townspeople act decently toward Linden, but then, she's "normal" after all: she's not suffering from leprosy, or some other "sinful" affliction. Still, good points you've made.

I agree that Linden is much carressed by townies who find it practical to cozy up to a doctor, but I'm sure a few of them are acting out of taintless gratitude. SRD says so. I'm going to check (if I can find the first Chrons at the used book store), but if memory serves there wasn't a non-rotten Real World person in the first six books.

I put the change down to the salvific blood of T. Covenant, the grouch that was slain.

Interesting post.

I think it's all to do with the absence of Covenant. The Land was created to be the anithesis of leprosy; to be effective in that role, it had to be balanced by an extremely unpleasant Real World. And it does make sense that Covenant would be the focus of such hostility - I've considered this numerous times of the years, and decided that if I was suddenly diagnosed with leprosy, my own experiences would probably not be much different to Covenant's. There is still an irrational panic attached to leprosy.

As for Hile Troy's suffering... It could be that no-one helped him because he's a (metaphorically) blind, arrogant git.

Covenant Jr spake thusly:

And it does make sense that Covenant would be the focus of such hostility - I've considered this numerous times of the years, and decided that if I was suddenly diagnosed with leprosy, my own experiences would probably not be much different to Covenant's. There is still an irrational panic attached to leprosy.

Yes, people are still quite demented about it, and quite capable of being horrid -- but would everyone react that way? The bad folk definitely outnumber the good in this old world of ours, but there are some saintly folk running around. I was sort of baffled that there weren't any good people in Reality at all, in the first and second Chrons. I shorted a few synapses trying to figure out what message the author was trying to send: was he saying something about himself, the human condition, what? Then I decided that he just wanted to be really, really sure that the audience knew Covenan't life was unbearable. Not just hard, but literally unbearable. Which would elevate his grim refusal to embrace his "delusion" to a heroic levels -- thoroughly irritating but undeniably heroic levels.

As for Hile Troy's suffering... It could be that no-one helped him because he's a (metaphorically) blind, arrogant git.

*clutches heart* What are you saying, what are you saying!? Hile Troy was an ultra-precious pookie bear! Okay, so he led a forced march or two, picked the worst possible person to become enamored of, and tried to fling himself of KW. But who among us hasn't done the same?

As the twig is bent, so grows the tree: and Hile Troy went on to a fabulous career as selflessly devoted, super mighty Forestal. Therefore, Hile Troy was a pookie.

Hile Troy: a saint in embryo OMG. (And a hottie!)

I'll just be over here replying to myself... pay no mind...

if memory serves there wasn't a non-rotten Real World person in the first six books.

Wait! Berenson -- Dr. Berenson was good guy in the first book, wasn't he? He stuck up for Covenant and gave him the occasional rah-rah speech, didn't he? It's all coming back.

I wish I could lay hands on the first Chrons. When I think of how many copies I've had and lost over the years... sigh.

jwaneeta wrote:And I think by showing so many Reality characters as good, upright people, he's implying that Covenant's sacrificial death redeemed his own world -- whatever happens to the Land.

That is an excellent point. Recall the paper the Creator gave Covenant to read — the one about 'the fundamental question of ethics'.

SRD wrote:If he is defeated, he will die, and his world — the real world — will be destroyed because it lacks the inner strength to survive.

I believe you've put your finger on something that will prove extremely significant in the Last Chronicles.

jwaneeta wrote:Wait! Berenson -- Dr. Berenson was good guy in the first book, wasn't he? He stuck up for Covenant and gave him the occasional rah-rah speech, didn't he? It's all coming back.

Dr. Berenford appears briefly at the very end of LFB, and again at the very end of TPTP. He is not referred to by name until TWL. But he was definitely a good guy in the Second Chronicles.

jwaneeta wrote:Curse you, Big Oil!

Stop burning so much oil and the price will go down. It's that expensive because they can't pump it out of the ground fast enough to give everybody what they want. Honest.

I've worked in the oil industry (of which, by the way, 'Big Oil' is a very minor part). I know something about what it takes to put gas in your tank and heating oil in your furnace. They're doing the best they can, but unfortunately it's a lot easier for humans to burn oil than to find more of it. If we hadn't killed the nuclear-power industry stone dead after the Three Mile Island flap, at least we'd have an alternative. It's our own fault that we haven't.

But this is really a topic for the Think Tank, which I sedulously avoid. So I'll shut up now, and I hope you'll have the charity to pretend that I shut up about three paragraphs ago.

In TIW, Susie Thurston - the nightclub singer - was friendly to Covenant, if only because she mistook him for someone else. But it's not known whether she still had any sympathy for Covenant after his leprosy was revealed, because at that point the narrative focused on the confrontation between Covenant and Sheriff Lytton. The truck driver who gave Covenant a ride to the nightclub at first treated him as a regular buddy, then became all panicky when Covenant's identity was revealed.

Maybe one could argue that SRD is guilty of perpetuating the stereotype of the "redneck" truck driver here, but the point is that people like that do exist in the real world. Besides, it wasn't like he was the only prejudiced soul around.

Kind of an obvious thing to say, but it's funny and tragic that Thomas Covenant picked what seems like the most backward and closed-minded town in America to live in (or nearby). I've never been to the US, never mind any small town, so what do I know? Just what I see in documentaries and read in books. At any rate, SRD sure paints a vivid and bitter picture of small town prejudice. I can't help but wonder if his depiction of such a place was influenced by his own sense of alienation when he came back to the US with his parents after spending his childhood in India. Or maybe the small town hellhole SRD created for Covenant is some unconscious version of the insular existence he had in India. SRD has mentioned often enough in the GI and elsewhere that, as a child growing up in India, he was shielded from much of that country's culture by his overly zealous and closed-minded missionary tutors, who didn't want him to be corrupted by sinful or un-Christian values. (Profuse apologies to SRD if my hypothesizing is pure BS.)

TPTP finds Covenant at the nadir of his relationship with the townsfolk, of course. I've said elsewhere that this is the hardest Chronicles book for me to read, because it's now really hell for Covenant in the Land, not just in the real world. And in the real world it just seems like everyone has it in for Covenant, whether it's cruel pranksters putting razors in his food items or the whole town petitioning against him. Then there's the church revival tent scene...yes, Covenant is having a REALLY bad day. About the only person who isn't hostile to him is the snake-bitten little girl, who hasn't yet learned to be afraid of "sick" lepers -- though I'm sure her decent, law-abiding and likely God-fearing parents would have trained her to be afraid in due course.

Okay, that was a bit of a rant...

jwaneeta wrote:Covenant Jr spake thusly:

And it does make sense that Covenant would be the focus of such hostility - I've considered this numerous times of the years, and decided that if I was suddenly diagnosed with leprosy, my own experiences would probably not be much different to Covenant's. There is still an irrational panic attached to leprosy.

Yes, people are still quite demented about it, and quite capable of being horrid -- but would everyone react that way?

I could see it being that way. There's a kind of 'tipping point' where, once people feel it's 'okay' (acceptible, the norm) to have an attitude, they jump on the bandwagon. Maybe they feel free to not listen to their conscience. Maybe they want to be on the same side of the issue as their friends and neighbors. Maybe they find a 'legitimate' focus for venting their hatred, fear, issues.

Who, now, will admit to being a fan of Culture Club? See what I mean? At some point, spurning Covenant becomes the 'in' thing. And then everything moves that way.

So the town and environs is probably pretty much the same as it has always been. The people are the same. Covenant was a special case that polarized people in a negative way.

Variol Farseer commented:

That is an excellent point. Recall the paper the Creator gave Covenant to read — the one about 'the fundamental question of ethics'.

SRD wrote:
If he is defeated, he will die, and his world — the real world — will be destroyed because it lacks the inner strength to survive.

I believe you've put your finger on something that will prove extremely significant in the Last Chronicles.

Exactly, that's just what I'm driving at. The town's change of attitude is a direct result of Covenant's death. SRD stresses that more than once. And the upsurge in decency is so widespread and so marked, in contrast to the First and Second Chrons, that I'm convinced that it has to mean something: perhaps that Covenant fufilled his unsought role as Leper Messiah, and brought about a lasting change of hearts and minds.

Btw, when I say "Covenant's world," I'm mostly referring to his own small orbit -- Oppression Towne and its denizens -- rather than the world at large. I don't think SRD is trying work on a larger Reality canvas than that. But perhaps a ripple effect is implied -- that would be a nice note of optimism in what I fear will be a rather grim conclusion.

Dr. Berenford appears briefly at the very end of LFB, and again at the very end of TPTP. He is not referred to by name until TWL. But he was definitely a good guy in the Second Chronicles.

(What'd I call him? Berenson? Woof, it has been a long time. ) And of course the hospital, an project of shared responsibility and group remorse, is named in honor of Berenford, the only person who supported Covenant and treated him like a human being rather than a pariah. (They really ought to build a Covenant Memorial Pavillion, though. That hospital seems a little small. )

Stop burning so much oil and the price will go down. It's that expensive because they can't pump it out of the ground fast enough to give everybody what they want. Honest.

Ah! But I use as little as I possibly can, which is why my studio is an ice box. A Quaker is me, actually. I work at home, and I drive my wee, modest, efficient little Toyota sparingly; a tank of gas lasts me more than a month. The sorrow of it is, I bought this house in part because it had an alternative heating system, but too late I discovered the seller was kind of a nut, and his heating system was a breathtakingly illegal and dangerous jury-rigged mess that stood a fair chance of blowing my house to Mars if I used it. I ended up returning my fabulously expensive, state-of-the-art pellet stove, and here I sit with the the thermostat at 58 degrees f. Hurry spring, oh lord!

*koff* Sorry, tangent, there. The woes of a new homeowner, dontcha know.

Anyway, I find it really interesting that in Runes, several of Linden's supporters ended up going toe-to-toe with Lord Foul, for all intents and purposes, and a couple of them seem to have given their lives in the struggle. So it's no longer a case of the Chosen and the Suffering Messiah fighting and dying exclusively in the fight against evil -- ordinary folk, citizens of the "our" plane, have made sacrifices, too. I found that moving and unexpected, and I like what it implies about the true depth of Covenant's role in both worlds.

jwaneeta wrote:*clutches heart* What are you saying, what are you saying!? Hile Troy was an ultra-precious pookie bear! Okay, so he led a forced march or two, picked the worst possible person to become enamored of, and tried to fling himself of KW. But who among us hasn't done the same?

You'd love the classic "Hile Troy is a berk" topic. Several members (including me ) go into some detail as to why Troy is...well...a berk. If I can find the topic, I'll bump it for you. It's in the Thomas Covenant Discussion section.

I agree with what Wayfriend said. Shouldn't underestimate the mob or herd mentality. Maybe the townsfolk seem nicer now because they no longer have to put up with "that leper." So the result might be the same - that the people appear friendlier now - because things became "normal" again after Covenant passed away, and the threat of his presence among them was over.

Of course, jwaneeta could well be right that attitudes have changed for the better in that town. Maybe I'm just suffering from a case of doom-and-gloom, but I remain skeptical.

As for Hile Troy, I've made my feelings about him known in the other Hile Troy thread, heh heh. Basically, I disliked him as Troy, but I revered him as Caer-Caveral.

Covenant Jr promised:

You'd love the classic "Hile Troy is a berk" topic. Several members (including me ) go into some detail as to why Troy is...well...a berk. If I can find the topic, I'll bump it for you.

*rubs hands* I eagerly await said bumpage, whereupon I will offer unassailable argument and incontrovertible proof that Hile Troy was not a berk indeed, but a tragic woobie and an all-around swell guy.

jwaneeta wrote: The sorrow of it is, I bought this house in part because it had an alternative heating system, but too late I discovered the seller was kind of a nut, and his heating system was a breathtakingly illegal and dangerous jury-rigged mess that stood a fair chance of blowing my house to Mars if I used it.

You might find this amusing after your difficulty.
I do because I find human stupidity funny.
There is a wildlife center **being built**(key phrase here) near my wifes work.
They installed solar panels on the roof (great idea, I'm 100% onboard with that) but didn't hook it up to anything.
It was collecting heat that went nowhere.

The roof was on fire last week.....
(no animals were at the half built facility yet.)

Matrixman noted:

Kind of an obvious thing to say, but it's funny and tragic that Thomas Covenant picked what seems like the most backward and closed-minded town in America to live in (or nearby). I've never been to the US, never mind any small town, so what do I know?

And until my move to the Midwest four years ago, I spent my life in LA, San Francisco and NYC, which might be considered hotbeds of liberal thought and social service. But I have to say, I'm not finding the heartland much different -- the place is teeming with philanthropy.

Who knows, maybe it is a small town thing: I've never lived in one either.

(Which leads me to offer a theory as to the location of Oppression Towne, a question I saw raised in an old thread. I think it's upstate New York. I know several writers who live up there, because houses that would otherwise be out of even a working writer's reach are affordable in the boonies, and it's close enough that New York City and a free lunch on the publisher's tab is only a morning's drive away.

(None of my writer pals has ever mentioned a creepy small town mentality, though. But of course none of them has to grapple with a socially-terrifying illness.)

I'm one of those people who think the Land is not meant to be read as a dream, but as an independent reality. If anything, it's the Real World that seemed nightmarish and exaggerated by comparison. In Runes, though, it's a place I can recognize more or less, and I think it helps the story.

Matrixman also said:

As for Hile Troy, I've made my feelings about him known in the other Hile Troy thread, heh heh. Basically, I disliked him as Troy, but I revered him as Caer-Caveral.

Oh, but they're the same person! Caer-Caveral said so at the very end, at the supreme moment: "I am yet Hile Troy withal." And he ought to know.

I maintain that Hile Troy the strategist lived within the mighty frame of the Forestal, and it was his scheme that ultimately enabled dead!Covenant to resist the Despiser. He retained his human vulnerailties, and cherished Andelain dear within his mortal breast. Hile Troy's stubborness was a driving force behind Andelain's dogged defense, and it was Troy who appealed to Covenant when the power of a Forestal was unable to compell him.

Caer-Caveral was Hile Troy humbled, exalted, wise with long sorrow and Forestrially puissant, and that's why he's groovy.

jwaneeta, it's wonderful to have a passionate defender of Hile Troy like you here to energize the discussion! Perhaps every character in the Chronicles deserves a champion.

Troy is a character that, like Covenant or Linden, seems impossible to be viewed with indifference by the reader. You either love him or hate him.

No one questions Troy's love for the Land. It's his haughty overconfidence that I have a problem with, and his insistence that he is the man to defeat Foul's armies. That, perhaps, is similar to the egomaniacal "God complex" that, according to SRD, High Lord Kevin suffered from: if he couldn't save the Land himself, then he'd take down the Land with him to ensure that no one else could. Maybe that's a harsh view, but over the years of thinking about Troy I still end up seeing him in an unfavorable light, as I mentioned in the Hile Troy thread. (Ack, I should probably bump it.) But in comparing Troy to Kevin, I'm putting Troy in a positive light for a change, yes? Kevin ultimately screwed up, while Troy redeemed himself in the end. Happy now? Huh? Huh?

Hey, if people here (:cough: High Lord Jay et al :cough:) can go around bitching about Linden, then I should be allowed to bitch about Troy.

jwaneeta wrote:And until my move to the Midwest four years ago, I spent my life in LA, San Francisco and NYC, which might be considered hotbeds of liberal thought and social service. But I have to say, I'm not finding the heartland much different -- the place is teeming with philanthropy.

Who knows, maybe it is a small town thing: I've never lived in one either.

The trouble with places like LA, SF, & NYC is that they are hotbeds of talking about liberal thought and social service, but comparatively few people actually do anything about it. Midwesterners have a much stronger tradition of taking personal responsibility through practical action. That's an essentially conservative trait — a kinder and gentler version of vigilante justice — harnessed to 'liberal' ideals (which are by no means the sole property of liberals).

There's a joke about the various English-speaking countries that sheds light on the issue:

An Australian believes a man should look after his mates.
An Englishman believes a man should look after the other members of his club.
An American believes a man should look after himself and his family.
A Canadian believes a man shouldn't look after anyone, because that's the government's job.

The 'Canadian' attitude (which really is depressingly common in Canada) finds its perfect expression in those smugly comfortable souls who complain that the government doesn't do enough to alleviate poverty, but never do anything for the poor themselves — because, you know, that would only give the illusion of progress and prevent people from realizing how desperately serious the problem is. It is better to curse the darkness than to light any number of candles, and Confucius was a reactionary chump — so say they.

The people of Covenant's town, or at least a good many of them, have entered that state of grace where they feel the social responsibility to improve the community, without forgetting the individual responsibility to take action. Their reaction to the events surrounding Covenant's death is beautifully typical of the best of small-town America. Still more typical is the fact that they keep re-electing a hindbrained dinosaur like Barton Lytton. After all, it's not the Sheriff's job to help the poor and the sick, and if he doesn't understand the need to pitch in, that's his funeral. They still regard their elected officials as their servants, not their mommies, and don't expect them to do everything.