Kevin's Watch

Any chance that Thomas Covenant WAS Berek Halfhand.

Here's my thought. When Thomas starts out he thinks the whole thing is a dream - I don't think he accepts it as reality until he becomes the Arch of Time; however, not all dreams are remembered - maybe Thomas did go to the Land before. Just a thought.

thats a very interesting question!!!! even if it is justa hypothesis im going to listen to what you have to say!!!

are you thinken that TC was called to the land when he was writing his first novel , we all know that you become the person you were before you came to the land just before your ready to leave , so could his time in the hospital have been an over memory???? a memory placed by himself because he couldnt live with the beauty that he had left behind???

the story of the white gold was in legend long before TC arrived in the land ??? oooo but i cant remember ..wasnt berek halfhand in the end of the first chronicals when the dead " laughed " Lord foul away??? if so does this perhaps negate either the existance of the land ??? or the existence of berek -halfhand??

I think the timeframe is no good: Berek lived millenia before the time of the first chronicles, so at least ten years should have elapsed for TC in his real life, like between the first and second chronicles (4000 years = 10 years)

And yes, I'm pretty damn sure Berek was there, laughing away at the end of TPTP...

Interesting point, though :)

Berek is mentioned being among the dead lords:

They were the specters of the dead Lords. He recognized Kevin Landwaster son of Loric. Beside Kevin stood two other livid men whom he knew instinctively to be Loric Vilesilencer and Damelon Giantfriend. There were Prothall, Osondera, a score of men and women Covenant had never met, never heard named. With them was Elena daughter of Lena. And behind and above them all rose another figure, a dominating man with hot prophetic eyes and one halfhand: Berek Earthfriend, the Lord-Fatherer.

-- The Power That Preserves

Why did Donaldson make Covenant resemble Berek? I think it must have something to do with the Staff of Law. Berek was the one who had formed it, and Covenant destroys it. Then in the second Chronicles Covenant follows the footsteps of Berek in trying to make a new Staff of Law.

-pitchwife

The connection between our world and the Land is established by SRD but not so clearly. The very fact that the Creator can enter our world and translate persons from our world to his world and visa versa .. suggests some relationship exists between the 2 worlds.

That in itself is very exciting .. one is left wondering how this relationship exists and what is the connection between both exactly??

Were TC and Berek one in the same person .. is it a different life time .. thing .. TC is an interesting character .. chosen for his possession of some unique character (and I dont mean his personality but more his persona) The ring wasnt why he was chosen .. as many in this world possess tokens of white gold .. it is common here .. There was something far more profound and the fact that he did wear a white gold ring .. was to me .. a bonus ..

After all TC was the White Gold .. and didn't need the ring to wield it in the end ..

but Berek wore the same white gold ring .. definitely the connection here is no accident .. I wonder if in the 3rd chrons .. SRD will finally place this connection into its true context ..

I dont think we can draw a connection from within TC's physical time frame as the years dont coincide .. with the existence and presence of Berek in the Land ..

There has to be something more .. and knowing SRD something clever ..

and to paraphrase the quote Hearthcoal left on another thread .. SRD himself has stated that nothing in the book is extraneous to the story/plot lines .. He has written a tight story here and he wouldnt have introduced the Berek-TC character relationship .. for no reason .. there is a reason but I'll be dogged if I know what it is ..

Wow! that's a baited question: was leprosy Berek's gift 2 TC? When I was 1st summoned 2 Kevin's Watch, almost 1 year ago, the 1st topic I read in depth was 1 that tried 2 research all the time differences between our world and the Land. The Land, Kevinswatch (Jay), Heartcoal and every1 else were measuring xactly how: for every 1 of our years x amount of years had passed in the Land. We REALLY need Heartcoal here 2 link us back 2 that topic! Anyway what they came up w/AND it appears 2 b accurate--is that if u trace Land years back 2 Berek's "Calling of the Fire Lions" it is, about, the EXACT same time TC's leprosy manifests itself in our world. I will go try 2 find that topic--the new kids r stumbling on 2 a topic that we argued ENDLESSLY about in the old archives...Oh Sky, btw, DID the Creator translate-or was it characters in the Land summoning? I kno a whole other topic, there...

I found it: go 2 the archives, go 2 topic: Third Cronicles page 2. Kevinswatch's anaylsis of Earth/The Land's timelines--he originally proposed that 4 for every year in our world 7 years passes in The Land, but I think that was amended--it was what 10 years btween the 1st and 2nd Chorns? A very good topic 2 discuss--I suggest y'all read that old topic b4 going any futher...

I think the distinction is academic .. whether those from our World were translated by the Creator .. or as in LFB .. Drool Rockworm per LF or anyone else ..

It is the Creator's domain .. and he seems to allow movement between the 2 worlds/dimensions .. on 'prescribed' occassions ..

The Creator would be aware of the events upon his 'earth' and inasmuch he clearly intends non-interventionist strategies/tactics .. he does intervene as we have seen on a number of occassions. Appearing to TC and LA prior to their individual summonings .. and his healing of TC and his offer of more as an expression of gratitude of TC's assistance in the Land.

And as far as the Berek = TC theory .. I still cant see the times matching up .. but I will go and check The Land's 'Time Line' calculations and get back on that.

Skyweir, regarding your post on May 1st, I NEVER saw in any place that Berek was wearing a white gold ring. But I do remember that he was the first one to have talked about it's existence. (pg.79 LFB, for one). If there is a referrence that he was wearing such a ring, I would love to see where it is, for then it would give a whole new dimension to the stories. Also, I would be more than a little bit curious to find out what happened to such an article of power.

Go look @ my last post in Townfulosonbitches 4 a proposal theory that Berek made still b alive in OUR world!!!!

I will research .. but from my all but petrified memory cells .. I do recall in the lamentations and songs of the various peoples in the Land .. Berek is mentioned as being a white gold ring bearer.

but rather than just postulate that here .. .. I will come back having referenced it if it indeed exists.

A very interesting theory Danlo .. I think you should detail it here ..

"Gold has never been found on the earth, though it is said that Berek knew of it, and made the songs."

[chapter 6 .. Legend of Berek Halfhand, LFB]

Even though Atiaran says Gold has never been found on the earth before .. we know that in Brathairealm that the gaddhi .. Kasreyn worked with Gold .. possessed Gold ..

You have seen', the Kemper continued as he worked 'that I possess an ocular of gold. Purest gold - a rare and puissant metal in such hands as mine. With such aid, my arts work great wonders ...

[chapter 15 .. Dont touch me p272 TOT]

"such gold is rare in the Land .. mayhap it may be found no otherwhere than here. Therefore came I hither, taking the mastery of Brathairealm upon myself. And therefore also do I strive to extend my sway over other realms, other regions, seeking more gold. With gold I perform my arts ..."

[chapter 19 The Thaumaturge p349 TOT]

This might b what y'all r looking 4: LFB p.68 Legend of Berek Halfhand

"It is white gold." Atiaran's reply sounded as forlorn as if she had just suffered a bereavement. "So what?" He could not understand what distressed the woman. "It doesn't mean a thing. Joan---" Joan had preferred it to yellow gold. But that had not prevented her from divorcing him. "It is white gold," Atiaran repeated. "The Lords sing an ancient lore song concerning the bearer of white gold. I only remember part of it, thus:
And he who wields the white wild magic gold
is a paradox--
for he is everything and nothing,
hero and fool,
potent and helpless--
and with the one word of truth or treachery,
he will save or damn the Earth
because he is mad and sane,
cold and passionate,
lost and found.

Do you know the song Covenant? There is no white gold in the Land. Gold has never been found in the Earth, though it is said that Berek knew of it, and made the songs...

So how DID Berek kno of it? Had he been 2 our world b4? He must have! I believe Berek knew how 2 cross-over 2 our world and may still b walking around. At the beginning of IEW the singer, Susie Thrurston, at the nightculb, The Door, calls TC Berek 4 times. The real "Berek" may possibly be the nightclub singer's "old friend", she also said he was a singer! At the beginning of TPTP TC calls her and she says no I said Berrett but u looked so much like him I almost kissed u! Susie thought TC was weird on the phone and may have been covering 4 Berek by altering his name. So my theory is that the singer, along w/her friend "Berrett"--he may have been following her--, was passing thru TC's town when Foul summoned TC--Foul--or Drool's screw-up--focused in on TC by mistake, since he looked so much like Berek, and after cing the power of the white gold ring summoned TC by mistake--he was really going after Berek! Is Kayseryn also from our world?

It's possible that even tho Atiaran had studied at the Loresraat, she didn't know of Brathairealm's existence. Altho it would seem to be stretching it, that a Stonedowner wouldn't have at least heard rumors about the source of a kind of precious rock.... Maybe she wasn't being quite truthful with TC when she told him that -- not telling him the whole truth. She certainly had motivation for not being nice to TC....

Or maybe Kasreyn didn't find his gold in the Earth -- maybe he conjured it somehow, from our world? or maybe he's an alchemist who can turn base metal into gold? He was wizard enough to get involved with that thing on his back....

Altho I have to say that I kind of like the idea that Berek originally came from our world. And, yeah, Kasreyn is kind of an odd character for the Land, isn't he? I can't think of another character like him, in fact -- a devious and power-mad human-type. Even Kevin thought he was doing the Land a favor when he wasted it. And it's clear that Elena has her reasons for being a little nuts. We have no backstory on Kasreyn. Interesting....

Ok now I believe that Covenant and Berek were somehow involved, and only SDR can tell us exactly how. But I do not think that the "Berret" that the singer spoke of is actually Berek. Correct me if I am wrong but nowhere in the books did it say that Covenant had a resembalance to Berek in looks. The people of the land believed he was berek mearly because he had half a hand, not because he looked like Berek.

Well, true, Bahgoon, but for them, Berek had lived a couple of centuries before TC showed up. The part about the half-hand may have been the only description of Berek that survived.

Not that it is a definitive source in this context .. but .. SRD introduces the reaction of the inhabitants of the Land to TC by summarising thus;

"Thomas Covenant is a happy and successful author until an unfelt infection leads to the amputation of two fingers. Then he learns he has leprosy. The disease is arrested at a leprosarium, but he returns home to find himself an outcast. His wife has divorced him, and his neighbours shun him in ignorant fear."

"Lonely and bitter, he goes to town. then just after meeting a strange beggar, he stumbles in front of a police car. He revives in a strange world where the evil voice of Lord Foul orders that he take a message of doom to the Lords of the Land. High on a montain, at Kevins Watch, a young girl named Lena finds him and takes him to her home."


"There he is considered a reincarnation of a legendary hero, Berek Halfhand, and his white gold wedding ring is considered a talisman of great power."

[Forward: What has gone before, p9, TPTP]

So here SRD introduces the perception of the inhabitants of the Land to TC above. They really do perceive him as Berek .. and not just because of the half-hand .. but as Danlo quoted above .. the white gold .. was also related with this legendary knowledge of Berek .. in particular he being associated with this metal.