Kevin's Watch

In philosophy, we are reading Plato's Symposim (nearly finished with it). Thus far, I must admit I've enjoyed it tremendously--much to my surprise. Even though the whole thing is about Pedarestry (sp?), I find the book fascinating. I've especially enjoyed the way Socrates calls everyone else a moron, himself a genius (the picture-perfect version of Love--that is Eros, the god), and does so while appearing humble and harmless.

For those who don't know, the point of the book is a speech contest. The theme is love (note: love, the desire, and Love, the god, are inseparable in Greek thought. They are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing). Five speakers go up and praise Love as the most beautiful and handsome of the gods. Then Socrates proves love must actually be rather plain and neither good nor bad.
The eventual point of Socrates' speech is an analogy of ladder--the path we ought to take to understand what Love really is and to experience true beauty.

put simply it works like this:
1.) love of one person's physical beauty
2.) realize that physical beauty is everywhere; the beloved is not unique
3.) learn to love that one person's soul (or mind)
4.) through conversation, learn to love laws and customs of society
5.) through further conversation, learn to love knowledge in all its forms and pursuits
6.) finally, have an epiphany of Beauty. See what Beauty truly is. In comparison, all else is rubbish.

What do you guys think about Plato/Socrates' little Ladder of Love?

Important note: the word used for Love/love (Eros/eros) has very strong sexual conotations in the Greek--it's where we get out word "erotic."

Prom_STar wrote: 4.) through conversation, learn to love laws and customs of society

Maybe I'm just in a grumpy mood, but I have a problem with that line. It doesn't take much to twist that into "through conversion, learn to love laws and customs of society." And we all know how ideas can be twisted around to serve personal agendas. Philosophers can stand up there and blurt out utopian ideals, until the politicians/zealots hijack them for their own purposes.

I think the general idea is begin loving on a simple level (superficial, in this case) and progress to higher and higher levels until one at last realizes the true form of love--that is the knowledge of pure Beauty.

It's a lot like the idea of Enlightenment.

Also, as far as laws and customs go, remember the Greeks had very different priorities than us.

Us:
Self
Family
State

Greeks:
State
Family
Self

Also, the conversation was supposed to be with one's beloved--and the beloved in this case would be a boy between the ages of 14 and 18, about. The lover would be an older man. (Crazy Greeks)

Matrixman wrote:

Prom_STar wrote: 4.) through conversation, learn to love laws and customs of society

Maybe I'm just in a grumpy mood, but I have a problem with that line. It doesn't take much to twist that into "through conversion, learn to love laws and customs of society." And we all know how ideas can be twisted around to serve personal agendas. Philosophers can stand up there and blurt out utopian ideals, until the politicians/zealots hijack them for their own purposes.

www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012/

As Prom_Star points out, the Greeks, (and many classibal cultures) were very interested in everybody accepting their place, and acting for the good of the state.

I totally agree with MM for what it's worth, they wanted a propoganda machine that would convince everybody that their state (government) was the best that there was or ever could be. Very similar to other governments at other times...(read "even today" ).

I don't think it's a necessary step in the process. Loving the laws and customs of your society is all very well. But what if they're wrong?

--A

Prom_STar wrote:In philosophy, we are reading Plato's Symposim (nearly finished with it). Thus far, I must admit I've enjoyed it tremendously--much to my surprise. Even though the whole thing is about Pedarestry (sp?), I find the book fascinating. I've especially enjoyed the way Socrates calls everyone else a moron, himself a genius (the picture-perfect version of Love--that is Eros, the god), and does so while appearing humble and harmless.

For those who don't know, the point of the book is a speech contest. The theme is love (note: love, the desire, and Love, the god, are inseparable in Greek thought. They are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing). Five speakers go up and praise Love as the most beautiful and handsome of the gods. Then Socrates proves love must actually be rather plain and neither good nor bad.
The eventual point of Socrates' speech is an analogy of ladder--the path we ought to take to understand what Love really is and to experience true beauty.

put simply it works like this:
1.) love of one person's physical beauty
2.) realize that physical beauty is everywhere; the beloved is not unique
3.) learn to love that one person's soul (or mind)
4.) through conversation, learn to love laws and customs of society
5.) through further conversation, learn to love knowledge in all its forms and pursuits
6.) finally, have an epiphany of Beauty. See what Beauty truly is. In comparison, all else is rubbish.

What do you guys think about Plato/Socrates' little Ladder of Love?

Important note: the word used for Love/love (Eros/eros) has very strong sexual conotations in the Greek--it's where we get out word "erotic."

I have to read this book.

Oh, meant to mention, don't forget they differentiate between erotic love, (eros) and "platonic" and unconditional love, (agape).

--A

Just ordered the book from Amazon.