Kevin's Watch

Do any of you think that the raping of Lena can be forgiven? Or do any of you understand why he did it, and does the fact that Thomas thinks he's dreaming make a difference to this crime.

Yes
Yes
Yes

you got a topic-opening rave or what???

Covenant's only salvation for the rape is his unbelief. He doesn't believe any of this is happening; that it is a dream where he can feel again after months of impotency (probably something he's dreamed a lot about, remember just a few pages earlier Thom's frustration looking at the shopping women).

Here we have him waking up with his head in the lap of a 16 year old feeling erotic for the first time ever. Well, heck, he might have thought to himself, this going crazy isn't all bad. Let's see how much we can control this lucid dream...

The fact that he spends the next 1800 pages racked with guilt over the whole thing kinda helps too. But it is still pretty difficult to read, and hard to forgive too. And the way he just sort of shrugs things off; the way Lena's parents feed him, the way she helps him even after the rape.... UGH, in a series of books full of unsetteling things, Lena's rape and the 10 pages afterwards are just nasty.


But that's just my opinion. Fortunately for me, as a reader, I don't have to forgive him for it.

I can forgive him, but the question is, can he forgive himself? The other two questions TC repeatedly asks himself, and, I believe he came up with a sufficient answer.

"You know that saying, 'You always hurt the ones you love,'?" It works both ways." - C. Palahniuk [/i]Fight Club[/i]

First Mark Tuvor:

Do any of you think that the raping of Lena can be forgiven? Or do any of you understand why he did it, and does the fact that Thomas thinks he's dreaming make a difference to this crime.

No it can't be forgiven.

I understand why he did it. He was on a hurtloam induced
high.

And does the fact that he thinks he's dreaming make a
difference?

No it doesn't.

I can only judge such things by my own experience, but I've
never had a dream so vivid that I tasted food and drink, felt
temperatures ... I can't imagine how he could mistake a dream
for a real experience.

And even Covenant knows he did wrong before he ever
woke up the first time ... if you feel you're in a dream, why
would you feel bad about what you did? Covenant KNOWS
the Land is real in some sense ... so he knows that he did
wrong ... and he almost does it again to Elena.

So, no. I don't forgive him.

Rape is something I have a kneejerk reaction to.

What if Lena had been a few years younger? What if
she had been 12? Would those of you who say you can
forgive him still forgive him for what he did?

I think Covenant would have thought differently if she was 12.....im sure sex is appealing to him.....obviously....but 12....dont think so...

And as for him knowing its a dream....you may never have had dreams that vivid...i doubt any of us had...with out chemical assistance.....however...i doubt any of us has been a patient in a leprosarium.....you see one of the basis' for his unbelief is the fact that he cant....cant..accept anything other than the fact that he has leprosy...any deviation from that thought..is death...he becomes the man in the bed.....he spent months there....and it became a part of him...im a leper..his natural reaction now..in any social situation if you recall from the begining...was "leper, outcast unclean!" its understandable for him to have had this reaction.....if all of a sudden..somthing...impossible....literally impossible happens.....in a total contradiction of his life and its governing principals.......its like asking you too get inside your peanut and drive to the moon.....its as foreign and alien to life as somthing like..breathe water to him at this point....and so when all of a sudden in a "dream" he gets this opportunity.....he takes it....i understand......and i personally couldnt say that i would have done anything different...i honestly dont know....im not a leper...fotunately im not impotent....but most of all...ive never been crossing a street, hit by a car...taken to a dark place with one scary kid..telling me about the distruction of some land....then rescued by an attractive girl....who helps me down from the top of the world...then heals me.....somthing ive asked god for me to do everynight...everysingle night....and when he couldnt do it...this girl does....its impossible.....i dont know....

i find it hard to judge him....put yourself in his place for a bit...really think about..from where you sit right now at your computer...you shocked.....electrocuted..somthing traumatic.....then are taken to a different world....would you believe it?

i forgive covenant

well said Juan .. I agree with you .. you have to put yourself in his place before you can accuse him of rape.

His salvation is his unbelief .. to a degree .. but it also goes beyond that .. because he does believe eventually .. and he imho .. is still excused.

I too cant say I wouldnt have reacted similarly if I was in his situation .. should a thing be possible ..

I cant even imagine what it would've been like for TC .. losing so much .. and on top living with sexual frustration day in day out .. and never ever being able to satiate any sexual desire or stirring ..

and then having a dream .. a really amazing .. nice dream .. and lo and behold .. a stirring

Even in a dream .. it may have been nicer if he hadnt knocked her down and forced himself upon her .. but it was still a dream .. a fantasy ..

anyone can fantasize a scenario but who would never in a million years ever realise that scenario in real life.

but TC didnt need to restrain himself .. cos it was a dream ..

you cant be convicted for your dreams .. and you cant be accountable for fantasizing ..

(technically he was NEVER hit by a car...)

hahaha lol .. thats correct!!

he was nearly hit by a car .. so how did he end up with a concussion? or whatever kept him out of the loop while he was in hospital?

make them roads hard in schmucksville ..

his consciousness was sucked from him by Drool and the Staff

anyway, there is no need to forgive Covenant, as I've always said; he himself doesn't want to be forgiven, and SRD doesn't want us to forgive him, either
we just need to understand him

we all have our dark parts; what we need to understand how to come to terms woth that part, to achieve an inner harmony, the 'eye of the vertigo'

OFF: how in Ridjeck Thome does one scratch his scratchcard?? I am clicking on it like a mad Cavewight but nothing happens.

Put your fingernail against the screen, and...

I believe it's done in the vicinity of where you buy them (I think it gives you the option to scratch right after you buy it).

from memory you go to your inventory and see your scratch card .. and then select to 'scratchi it!!

and wackadoo!! .. you could be a winner!!!

Your right Danlo, he wasnt hit by a car....but i was on a roll....i forgot the discalimer.....forgive me......the concussion was probably from when he lost conciousness and hit the ground.....and i also agree that covenant dosent want to be forgiven.....and i agree that that donaldson also seeks understanding....however the question at the begining of this thread was one dealing with forgiveness......so i answered accordingly...

good day all.....

Can it be forgiven...hmm. The people in the Land certainly has no problem forgiving him, but then they are so much better people then we are, aren`t they?

TC does show real regret, and that certainly helps, shows that he isn`t a total bastard. So maybe he can be forgiven.

But I don`t think that the hurtloam-induced high of his is a good enough excuse. That would be like saying that all the men who rape women when they`re drunk (the rapists are drunk, not the women) have a good enough excuse. And TC, who has so much training in self-control and so on, should be able to resist this desire.

I`ve always found it strange that he regrets the rape so much, since he insists so strongly that it is a dream. Maybe the thing that he really regrets, is himself losing control. By raping Lena and by giving into the desire, he acknowledges the Land in a way.

Or something.

I do not know that I personally would have forgiven TC had I been in the Land, but it can be forgiven by somebody apparently.

I do not hold people responsible for what they think or dream, only for what they do in the reality that they share with me. Thus the fact that TC thought he was dreaming is a good enough excuse for me.

I agree with whoever said that SRD doesn't want us to forgive TC. Covenant rips himself apart throughout the whole series for what he did to Lena.

I still maintain that the rape was an attempt by TC to get control of the situation back. He was thrust into the Land, virtually healed, which was an impossibility, made responsible, by everyone in the Land, for the Land, and he lost it! He lashed out in anger and unfortunately, Lena was the target. Under normal circumstances, TC would not have done it. And if I recall correctly, he expects punishment. He doesn't run away from Mithil Stonedown. Rather, he waits for them to find him and exact their justice. When they don't, he is even more ashamed and revolted by what he did. Not only did he rape a "child" (which he refers to the issue as "raping a child" repeatedly throughout the book), he isn't even punished for it.

I feel for Lena, of course! But, I also feel for Covenant. I forgive him.

I don't think everyone in the Land forgave him! Certianly not Atiaran, Triock or Trell... (but, on the whole, yes they are better than we...)

its one tricky situation ..l to be sure