Joan's Madness

[black_grape]

I have to say I was disappointed with the whole time travel / Ceasures issue in the Runes. I agree it raises many possibilities for the much awaited sequels, which this forum magnificently debates, however I feel it is too contrived for the sake of the story. More like SRD was thinking 'what can I do next to grab the reader' or, more likely 'how can I get Covenant back'.

The scientific issues of time travel have already been discussed in the forum and I won't bother to go over them here. However, with regards to the book I have these gripes:

1) If SRD was going to introduce time travel based on Joan's madness, he should have started it at the time she first inherited the ring from Linden. This was only a few months before they all got dragged into the land, making time travel possible only for decades rather than millenia. Although useless for getting Covenant back, it could have set up a few fascinating paradoxes in the new series and might have been more believable. Its also curious that the caesures grabbed Anele from a time in the past which seemed to 'start' after Sunder and Hollian passed away, not long after Covenant /Linden's time, avoiding the issue of how time travel would have affected the previous Trilogy.

2) If Esmer can just float around time (and the book also implies the same for the Elohim), then this would surely make him (and them) far more powerful than Foul, since he seems to be stuck within the strictures of time. In addition, they would be able to see into both past and future and would not have to suffer the ignomy of Foul's machinisms. Infact, they would just be able to laugh in his face and ridicule him, knowing that he fails in his every opportunity to escape the Arch. Foul obviously has no control over time, otherswise he would have borne the Demondim down on Mhoram at Revelstone and crushed him completely, and he would have known already where the Illeath Stone was located and also the Staff of Law.

Unless the first 6 books are intricately woven with the time travel issue - which would be amazing but doubtful, the whole concept seems to me highly risky. Donaldson is in danger of slipping up, especially with the avid fan club he has plainly evident on this website looking for cracks. Lets hope he knows what he is doing.

[Avatar]

Welcome to the Watch Black_Grape, welcome indeed.

A good first post, one I'm sure will draw some interesting comments.

I too was curious how the first Ceasure, Anele's, was produced, assuming that it was long before Joan receiving the ring.

Of course, the people of the stonedown said something about the ceasures only appearing within the last 100 years or so, probably coinciding with that time, so I suppose that since it is apparently true that the Ceasures exist in all times once they are open, it is possible that that particular one, perhaps the first, opened in Anele's time also. *shrug*

Dunno...no doubt there will be other theories.

--A

[Xar]

Unless of course someone intentionally created that first caesure to whisk away Anele... after all, it is a strange coincidence that the first person to be whisked away by a caesure was the holder of the Staff of Law, who could have prevented Kevin's Dirt in time, had the Staff not been lost as a result of his disappearance...

[Avatar]

Hmmm, and the fact that it had been created made the creation of others possible? (We all know that the first time is the hardest...after that, it becomes easier and easier.

Still, rather inefficient if deliberate...killing him and stealing the staff would have been better, even if just to destroy it.

--A

[Usivius]

I don't think I can give any thoeries on this as the possiblities are endless, and in the hands of SRD, I am suer they will be good. He has yet to let me down. So, as I think many have stated before, have faith that he will take something understandably shaky (time-travel) and make it good.

[wayfriend]

We have heard Esmer proclaim that he can timetravel. But can he? He has demonstrated that he is adept with ceasures. And his only recorded timejaunt could be explained by hitching a ride in the same ceasure as Linden.

[Xar]

Hmmm, and the fact that it had been created made the creation of others possible? (We all know that the first time is the hardest...after that, it becomes easier and easier.

Still, rather inefficient if deliberate...killing him and stealing the staff would have been better, even if just to destroy it.

You assume, of course, that the intent was to destroy or take the Staff. But if that had been the reason, why was the Staff not taken before the Waynhim took it and hid it? I presume that the Staff of Law is not easily destroyed; it took wild magic to shatter the previous one, and this one is almost alive, so it presumably is even more resistant. What if the purpose of the caesure was to separate Anele from the Staff? Even more - what if whatever created that caesure did not want to touch the Staff, or could not? Perhaps it was something for which the Staff is anathema... something unnatural, upon whom the Staff could have exacted a toll similar, or even worse than, the one suffered by the Waynhim. But of course, this is pure speculation - unless this was Foul's plot and he didn't kill Anele because he would need him later on...

[Buckarama]

I was of the mind that the Esmer from past was just that. Esmer didn't time travel it was just the Esmer from that time meeting Linden and company. That would mean that Esmer's perceptions are not bound by a linear existance.


But there I go thinking again.

[dlbpharmd]

Welcome black_grape!

[wayfriend]

I was of the mind that the Esmer from past was just that. Esmer didn't time travel it was just the Esmer from that time meeting Linden and company. That would mean that Esmer's perceptions are not bound by a linear existance.

But there I go thinking again.

That's a legit theory. But if he knows what happens in the future, through the experiences of his future self, how is that less ... disruptive ... than time travel? If all Elohim know the future, what would that imply?

[MrKABC]

I presume that the Staff of Law is not easily destroyed; it took wild magic to shatter the previous one, and this one is almost alive, so it presumably is even more resistant. What if the purpose of the caesure was to separate Anele from the Staff? Even more - what if whatever created that caesure did not want to touch the Staff, or could not? Perhaps it was something for which the Staff is anathema... something unnatural, upon whom the Staff could have exacted a toll similar, or even worse than, the one suffered by the Waynhim. But of course, this is pure speculation - unless this was Foul's plot and he didn't kill Anele because he would need him later on...

High Lord Mhoram was of the impression that the old Staff of Law had been destroyed in the struggle between Kevin and Elena. To me, that implies that the Staff of Law, while very powerful, still can physically be damaged or destroyed, especially if unattended or held by someone that doesn't know how to call up its power.

Granted, the new Staff of Law was formed in a different manner, but it is still WOOD and iron heels. Maybe that was why the Waynhim stole it - to protect it from falling into the hands of the ignorant who might inadvertently damage and/or destroy it?

I am thinking that the purpose of the time travel is to remove the Staff from the time stream, thereby allowing Kevin's Dirt and caesures to appear. Both are violations of Law that the Staff is supposed to prevent, had it been present.

[Avatar]

While that makes sense, what doesn't is leaving it where it can potentially be rediscovered, and used against the Dirt and the ceasures.

(And the first ceasure appeared not far from the Staff, although Anele didn't take it to examine the ceasure, it should still have been in "effect.")

No, I think Anele's "translation" (to cross-reference ) was accidental or random. If it was a plan, it left too much to chance, like him leaving the staff behind.

--A

[Xar]

I'm not sure, Avatar: given what we know about the fact that breaking a Law is always hardest the first time, AND that the Staff of Law was active (not just present) when the first caesure took Anele, I can't help but wonder what sort of power could have opened a caesure in these conditions. And, given the presumably staggering amount of that power involved, how can we be sure that the creator of that caesure might have had enough power to also direct it exactly. It might well be that the caesure was created and there was not enough power left to force it to pick up Anele AND the Staff, especially since they were in different locales... But on the other hand, picking one or the other would have been enough to ensure the Staff would have been able to actively prevent other caesures. No, I feel this is much more than just random coincidence...

[wayfriend]

I'm not sure, Avatar: given what we know about the fact that breaking a Law is always hardest the first time, AND that the Staff of Law was active (not just present) when the first caesure took Anele, I can't help but wonder what sort of power could have opened a caesure in these conditions.

Wild magic. It trumps Earthpower and Law every time. Plus the ceasures are enabled by the breaking of the Laws of Death and Life, and we are assured that this damage remains extant, despite the new Staff.

[Buckarama]

I was of the mind that the Esmer from past was just that. Esmer didn't time travel it was just the Esmer from that time meeting Linden and company. That would mean that Esmer's perceptions are not bound by a linear existance.

But there I go thinking again.

That's a legit theory. But if he knows what happens in the future, through the experiences of his future self, how is that less ... disruptive ... than time travel? If all Elohim know the future, what would that imply?

Well Elsmer is not just Elohim. Who knows what that genetic melting pot of his can do.
It is only less distructive by the occurance to NOT travel through time itself. By not traveling he doesn't threaten the Arch of Time. (I would guess)

[dlbpharmd]

I'm not sure, Avatar: given what we know about the fact that breaking a Law is always hardest the first time, AND that the Staff of Law was active (not just present) when the first caesure took Anele, I can't help but wonder what sort of power could have opened a caesure in these conditions.

Wild magic. It trumps Earthpower and Law every time. Plus the ceasures are enabled by the breaking of the Laws of Death and Life, and we are assured that this damage remains extant, despite the new Staff.

I agree, well said.

[Avatar]

But what is really being said here?

That Joan (or Linden) used wild magic to open the ceasure in the (ROTE) present, which travelled through Anele's time, depositing him in the ROTE past?

I wonder how long he'd been running around the (for him) future?

--A

[MrKABC]

I wonder if this has been brought up before (and forgive me if it has) but if Anele sensed a problem why LEAVE the Staff of Law???? As the holder of the Staff wouldn't you want it with you to deal with the problem???

Sounds like a plot hole to me....

[Xar]

I wonder if this has been brought up before (and forgive me if it has) but if Anele sensed a problem why LEAVE the Staff of Law???? As the holder of the Staff wouldn't you want it with you to deal with the problem???

Sounds like a plot hole to me....

Anele didn't fully embrace his heritage - he was always afraid he could not live up to the legacy his parents had left him. That's why he did not continue the healing of the Land and instead became Unfettered (and this makes me wonder whether, had he continued his parents's work instead, the Land might have seen forests again...). The Staff of Law was the symbol of that legacy, so it makes sense that although he kept it and preserved it, he did not use it as easily or as willingly as his parents did, because every time he would use it, he would be reminded (in his opinion) of how inadequate was he, compared to his parents. Presumably, he would only wield the Staff when he had no other choice; when he perceived a problem, he likely figured he could go there, see what the problem was, and then, only if it turned out to be something very dangerous, he would go back and pick up the Staff. He had no reason to expect that the problem would prevent him from going back to fetch the Staff...

Wild magic. It trumps Earthpower and Law every time. Wink Plus the ceasures are enabled by the breaking of the Laws of Death and Life, and we are assured that this damage remains extant, despite the new Staff.

True, but at that time, Joan had no ring... so either the caesure was one of those Joan had created in the future, which existed in all times simultaneously and therefore showed up in Anele's time, or it was created by someone else.
In either case, the question remains as to why, of all the people in the Land and of all places in the Land, a caesure "just happened" to show up near to Anele's cave, who just happened to be the holder of the Staff of Law. It seems to me that it was just... awfully convenient for Foul's plans (and/or for whoever created Kevin's Dirt) that a caesure would pick up the only person who could wield the Staff to make caesures and Kevin's Dirt more difficult, if not impossible, to create. Of course, you might say it's the other way around - that it was because of Anele's disappearance that Foul and the other entity came up with the plan(s) of Kevin's Dirt and of the caesures; but I tend to believe Foul already knew what he would be going to do even before Anele's disappearance (attacking Time is the logical next step for him, after attacking Nature... it would make sense that he would think of that as his next plan, and then would try to set events in motion so he could execute it).

By the way, I just thought how convenient Kevin's Dirt is for the Masters - by depriving the people of the Land of health-sense, it greatly reduces the chances that they might have re-discovered Earthpower by themselves. After all, if the people of the Land had health-sense, it would be much more difficult for the Masters to prevent knowledge or study of Earthpower among them - natural curiosity about what strange power one can see in plants and animals would likely force the Masters to keep a far tighter rein on the people of the Land. I wonder whether Kevin's Dirt could be a product of the Masters' devising... or at least, something they could have prevented and did not.

[Avatar]

Good post Xar. I'm not sure about the complicity of the Masters in Kevin's Dirt though. Although it serves their purpose, the Haruchai have no use for, or skill in, Earthpower themselves. They have no Lore.

And I'm sure that such would be necessary to either create or prevent it.

--A