Kevin's Watch

Hey burgs.

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:"She is possessed."

Linden blinked at him. "Possessed?" He had staggered her. He did not seem to be talking a language she could comprehend. ...

... "You see?" he murmured. "It's a question of experience. You're just not equipped to understand."

(Couldn't resist throwing in the Roger-like blurb about experience while I was here.)

Someone possessed Joan in TWL. Probably Lord Foul, rather than a Raver. But it is certainly possible for people in the Haven Farm world to be possessed by something from the Land. And it is hinted that Foul was able to do it because of the breaking of Law. And, if anything, that breaking is more rather than less at the time Runes opens.

I would certainly have to consider it possible for a Raver to possess someone in the Haven Farm world.

I agree...in fact, if Roger is not possessed by a Raver, I would be staggered.

Someone possessed Joan in TWL. Probably Lord Foul, rather than a Raver. But it is certainly possible for people in the Haven Farm world to be possessed by something from the Land.

Good point, yet I'm reminded that in simpler times many forms of mental illness were viewed as possessions.

I certainly hope it is not possession. The possession thing in the Land could be seen as symbolic. Weren't the Raver's created by man cutting down the original forest? I could be wrong on these details . . . but I thought the Ravers came about due to mankind's intrinsic disregard for life, so that "possession" is just a symbol of man's own evil being unleashed upon the world.

Oh well, even if my memory on this is a bit foggy, it would be very disappointing to have evil in the "real world" be based on something outside the person committing evil acts. I thought one of the points about SRD's work is to show how ordinary people are capable of great evil and/or epic heroism. If "the devil made me do it" can be admitted into this work, it is a diminishment, in my opinion. Especially for an author with an anti-religious fanaticism message.

Interesting topic of itself, need to find the chapter(s) in the dissection where it talks about the Raver's birth(s) My theorizing is probably hazy, after so many years--but I've suggested that they were either born under the aspect of a deep bane, the triplets, or one of the triplets dicovered that bane--somewhere where they shouldn't have been playing. And if the bane rubbed off on the mom at all-it turned her into the Lurker.

Spoiler

Actually somethings said later in Runes suggest that birth took place smack dab in the middle of the Sarangrave.

burgs wrote: This is exactly what it feels like to lose a loved one - an intimate partner with whom you share all of your heart. When she thinks of the "sheer glory of TC's struggle...", that could be a metaphor for perfect, utter happiness with one's partner or spounse. It's easy to look back at something that once brought you bliss and be saddened, especially if something standing right in front of you reminds you of your loss. This ache of hers that she knew how to bear - it's what people learn to do after losing a partner or spouse. You find a way. The ache is there, it is always there, the hole is unique and thus can never be replaced by anything else. (I speak from experience.)

I agree with this assessment as well... this ache is something she has learned to live with...

Early on the discussion was about why Roger seems so intent on making Linden suspicious and not being nice. I think the different way that Roger is speaking with Linden (as opposed to him appearing to the Sheriff as a nice guy) is his way of baiting her.
She has been taking care of Joan and now here comes Roger who says.. "I want to take her from you and only I know what to do"
... as opposed to...
"I have some information on how to fix her, let me share it with you so we can make her better"

I cant blame Linden for being suspicious of his motives. And I think thats the way Roger..and Foul wants it.. He is laying the ground work for what will come next.. this is very Foul-like. To do things and to set in motion certain events so they come to pass as he wants them to. Even though the end results havnt worked so far for Foul... the manipulation of people and events has worked very much in the Chronicals as he has wanted them to.

SoulBiter wrote:Even though the end results havnt worked so far for Foul...

Foul may take a longer view. He could very well consider his defeat in the first and second chronicles as necessary steps to his ultimate victory. Which would explain his apparent inability to predict his defeat. So he could right now be chuckling about how it's always been so easy to get what he wants.

Do you mean after the fact, Wayfriend? It doesn't seem that it's been terribly easy for him as he's been reduced to nothing three times and has spent considerable amounts of time regaining his strength. While SRD never wrote about this (like Rowling, for example, who wrote about Voldemort's licked wounds), we have to assume that Foul's recovery wasn't pleasant.

Wayfriend wrote: Foul may take a longer view. He could very well consider his defeat in the first and second chronicles as necessary steps to his ultimate victory.

I dont disagree. He could be taking the longer view, but only in that he doesnt see defeat the way we might be seeing it. He has yet to take his eye off the target.. His eventual goal is to escape from the Arch of Time and back into the cosmos where he came from. It doesnt matter how long it takes... time is no object....Keep in mind that for all intent and purposes he seems to be immortal...he can be reduced for a time but always comes back...

That being the case, he could look at those defeats (in the first two chronicles) as just setbacks rather than defeats. He might have known that he might be defeated but since he is immortal he knows that he can keep trying until he reaches his goal. Not that he doesnt try to win but that he knows that he might not win the first time, the second time or third time but eventually he will.

An appropriate analogy (although so much more simplistic) might be if I was trying to find the best way to get to a destination.. I might take one road heading the right direction only to find that it leads to a dead end. I might take another only to find it circles and goes the wrong way. I might get lost several times while trying alternate routes, but eventually I find a route to the destination.

Wayfriend wrote:

SoulBiter wrote:Even though the end results havnt worked so far for Foul...

Foul may take a longer view. He could very well consider his defeat in the first and second chronicles as necessary steps to his ultimate victory. Which would explain his apparent inability to predict his defeat. So he could right now be chuckling about how it's always been so easy to get what he wants.

I've wondered about this before.

I don't understand this. How has it been easy for him? It seems to me that it's been anything but easy. He's been thwarted at every turn, so why should he think that this time would be any different? He had layers of plans in the First Chronicles, layers in the Second...and all of his plans and fallback plans blew up in his face. And he's a "God". If he still has a positive outlook on all of this, I'd say he should be preaching at "feel good" seminars and writing self-help books.

tho a "god", Foul seems totally dependent on "non-gods" to do his work....he seems to be only as "powerful" as those that serve him.....

I don't know about the whole positive outlook thing, but I've just wondered before - what if everything that Foul has done has been designed to bring him to this point in time where his ultimate victory is ensured? First Chronicle events were necessary so that the Law of Death would be broken, 2nd Chronicle events so that the Law of Life would be broken, etc. In other words, everything is part of a "master plan."

Foul wanted Controll of the Land in the First Choons...he didn't get it (thanks to TC)

But before the Second chrons he GOT controll of the Land, what he wanted was to break free the AOT..again TC twarted him.

This time, I'm guessing he probebly could break free of the arch...but he wants total and utter destruction of the Earth and the Arch....Will TC stop him this time?

dlbpharmd wrote:I don't know about the whole positive outlook thing, but I've just wondered before - what if everything that Foul has done has been designed to bring him to this point in time where his ultimate victory is ensured? First Chronicle events were necessary so that the Law of Death would be broken, 2nd Chronicle events so that the Law of Life would be broken, etc. In other words, everything is part of a "master plan."

Precisely!

Would Foul have knowingly let himself be reduced, if doing so would step by step destroy the fabric of the Earth? I would say, yes. Even though it is not enjoyable. If he, like Covenant, knows that he cannot be destroyed, would this not be something that he would dare in order to be free? And don't forget, in each case there was a significant chance that he might have gotten free at that time - cards that Foul would be willing to play.

No, no, no - I can't believe it was conscious on Foul's part. If that was so, Foul wouldn't have been screaming in rage at the end of the First and Second Chronicles. He thought he was going to win - both times. Especially the Second. He screamed to the Creator after he acquired the ring - something about "beware mine enemy, I'm gonna wipe your ass up". OK, maybe not in a hillbilly dialect, but I don't feel like looking it up and that sounded funny to me. I'm odd.

Foul wanted out a long time ago. He's praying - with all of the extra elements here - that this will be his freedom. It's never been so good - or so bad - for him. That said, I don't think he will find his way out, and he will be screwed yet again. The title of the last book describes that quite succintly.

He knows that the confidence he wore in the First Chronicles was a badge mis-worn. He KNOWS this to be true of his "demise" in the Second Chronicles. How in the world could he possibly be feeling confident now? If he's feeling confident...well...I go back to my original statement about writing self-help books. The guy's delusional if he thinks it's going to work this time. There *has* to be doubt. If he doesn't have doubt, he's a f'in idiot. And we all know that is something he is not. Perhaps he overrates himself, but he's not an idiot. Especially after having his rear kicked so badly in the Second Chronicles. His defeat there, despite his best laid plans, was far worse than in the First Chronicles. Although perhaps in the First Chronicles it was a bit more embarssing.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong.