Kevin's Watch

Why didn't the Elohim know who the Haruchai were in TOT? Do you suppose Daphin was lying?

What if they truly didn't know the Haruchai? If the Elohim are, basically, Earthpower incarnate, connected with the whole of it, then the whole of the Earthpower must have been intentionally blinding them to the Haruchai. The Earthpower was certainly involved with the Haruchai. It joined them in the Vow; it likely has some connection with ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol; the Haruchai, even without the Vow, were immune to the Sunbane. Yet the Elohim never sensed the Haruchai.

hmmmmmmm.......

I guess it is all linked to the final conflict at the Island of the One Tree - The Elohim and the Haruchai knew about Kenaustin Ardenol, and the Elohim didn't want him to reach the tree successfully, so they made sure that the quest wouldn't know about him until Brinn took up the challenge and doomed their entire quest.

On the other hand, the Haruchai refused to follow the Elohim's instructions, and maybe they just don't like that?

well they didnt foresee the rightful role of Findail .. or any other representative of the Elohim .. they only saw that Vain represented some threat to them .. but they couldnt see the scope of that threat.

they were not so clever as they purported to be ..

Findail himself seemed to know from the start what Vain would do to him...

OK, we're off topic already, but I agree that Findail knew very well what could happen. Despite that possibility, I think he was Appointed because his real job, keeping the Earth safe from Covenant, was considered worth the risk.

As for Findail having already known who ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol was, I wonder. He only said something like, "Yes. The Guardian of the One Tree. He must be passed." That doesn't necessarily mean he knew that the Guardian was of the Haruchai. But if he did, then the Elohim DID know the Haruchai. In which case, why did Daphin lie about it in the first place, before there was any confrontation? Nothing seems to have come from that lie. (For that matter, nothing seems to have come from them not having known about the Haruchai.)

Findail might have known that it was possible that what happened to him would happen, but he obviously saw other possibilities which he tried to make happen. Unfortunately for him he did not succeed.

Fist and Faith wrote:As for Findail having already known who ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol was, I wonder. He only said something like, "Yes. The Guardian of the One Tree. He must be passed." That doesn't necessarily mean he knew that the Guardian was of the Haruchai. But if he did, then the Elohim DID know the Haruchai. In which case, why did Daphin lie about it in the first place, before there was any confrontation? Nothing seems to have come from that lie. (For that matter, nothing seems to have come from them not having known about the Haruchai.)

Its been a while since I've read TOT and I can't recall all of the specifics, but maybe it wasn't a lie rather than a technique used by Daphin to determine the true purpose of the Haruchai. Kind of like feigning ingorance in order to gauge who or what the Haruchai really were? As to what was to gain by this "feigning ignorance", your guess is as good as mine. I found the Elohim to be infuriatingly enigmatic....that's why I like them so much.

I was wondering when you'd post on this thread. The "feigning ingorance" is a good thought! And maybe it wasn't even directed at the Haruchai. Maybe they wanted Covenant and/or Linden to think that they didn't know the Haruchai. Hmmmm...

Fist and Faith wrote:I was wondering when you'd post on this thread. The "feigning ingorance" is a good thought! And maybe it wasn't even directed at the Haruchai. Maybe they wanted Covenant and/or Linden to think that they didn't know the Haruchai. Hmmmm...

I never let a reference to my people go unheeded, F&F. Why would the Elohim want Covenant or Linden to think that they didn't know the Haruchai?

I have no idea why. But I'm thinking that the Haruchai would not behave differently whether they thought they were known or not. If the Elohim did, indeed, know the Haruchai, they would know that. And so they must have been lying for someone else's benefit. If you follow my reasoning.

Yeah, sorta, kinda get you, I think. You ask a lot of perplexing questions F&F. .... But that's a good thing

I really don't follow. If the Elohim say to the Haruchai we don't know you perhaps your story will interest us, why think they're lying? It serves no purpose. I don't recall any Elohim lying--just witholding the truth. I don't know.

The Elohim are SO connected with the Earthpower that it's difficult to imagine them not knowing everything the Earthpower knows. Findail says, "We are of the Earth, and the Earth is of us, more quintessentially and absolutely than any other manifestation of life." And even, "Now we roam less, not that we will know less - for what the Earth knows we will know wherever we are -"

So how is it that they do not know the Haruchai? Although it wasn't out-and-out stated, it's likely that the reason the Haruchai were immune to the Sunbane was the Earthpower's presence in them. And a connection with the Earthpower would explain some big things about ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol. But no matter what else, the Earthpower certainly knew the Bloodguard!

Yet the Elohim don't know them? It doesn't add up.

I agree with Drummond .. it serves no purpose to lie .. clearly they are not forthcoming .. but they do not strike me .. nor have they ever struck me as deceptive creatures ..

totally full of themselves for sure ..

The fact imo is that they are not as knowing or as superior as they believe ..

and as for Vain .. I do not believe they 'knew' what Vain represented .. for if so why then evade their responsibility to benefit the earth .. and preserve Elmesnedene .. their own home ..

of Vain, SRD wrote:" ]I am Elohim. Kastenessen cursed me with death - but I am not made for death. I must not die.

Findail's flawed conception of what was required of him was corrected by Vain ..

when he said:

of Vain, SRD wrote:You will not die. It is not death. It is purpose. We will redeem the Earth from corruption.

The Elohim .. may believe they know much .. and to some extent they do .. after all they are among the oldest inhabitants of the earth .. but they do not percieve much ..

they may have suspected some unique purpose in the Haruchai .. but they did not conceptualise the scope of that purpose. Similar with Findail .. they may have suspected some involvement with Vain .. but they did not conceptualise the scope of that purpose ..

Of course,, there is something I had forgotten about until now - The Elohim intended to seal Covenant so that Linden would be forced to become the Ring-wielder - The Haruchai would never have permitted what the Elohim wished to do, so could not be allowed to remain in Elemesnedene.