Kevin's Watch

I am sure this must have been discussed before, but I can't seem to find the relevent thread. For those who subscribe to the theory that the Land is all in Covenents head, how do you explain the presence of Linden in the second chronicles (Not to mention various events in the third chronicles)? Thanks.

-SGR

Ok, let me say that I don't *fully* follow/endorse the whole "It's just TC having a dream" idea.
But I *want* it to be that way because I think it would be really cool and it would really piss most people off here and I think that by itself would also be funny because I'm a total bastard.

That said, here's how I wrap it all up.
(And I admit that's it's pretty weak an idea!)
The biggest snag to this idea though is the way the story is written from Linden's "point of view".
But Linden, like TC said about Troy, is just a figment of TC's imagination.
A dark twisted evil figment!
THOOLAH!
Ok, no more THOOLAH for now.

I think it's possible that the whole thing, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Chronicles could be one continuous dream.

To make this possible you have to throw out the whole idea that he ever really woke up at any point in the series.
Could TC have fallen asleep before he went into town and met the Creator?
Sure.
Maybe it's a dream he had at the leprosy hospital or his wedding night...whatever.

My favorite idea is that it's a dream he's having as he's dying from old age in a hospital/nursing home.
Fragments of the dream are real like his family and contracting leprosy but most everything else is a jumble from his life's experience.
That way we can see how he uses his whole life experience to grow in his "dream".

Spoiler

It would also explain the END of the Land.
TC dies for real.

It is sort of explained at the beginning of TWL, where TC and linden discuus the possiblitly of it being a shared dream.

There are so many reasons why it is hard to believe it is a dream, and no evidence which indicates it must be a dream. So I don't understand the dilemma. Just say: it's not a dream.

Sure, Covenant wants to believe that it is a dream. But that doesn't mean it is. Covenant doesn't have the benefit of willing suspension of disbelief that we have.

It's not like the fantasy or sci-fi genres haven't explored the idea of an alternate reality before. Even ones were people are spiritually but not bodily transported to other realms. We don't balk at these stories: why do we for the Chronicles?

I also do not subscribe to the 'its all a dream' theory, and it is not just to piss off HLT... In the GI SRD has said often enough that it was the device of the first chronicles, and that he has moved on (and the reader should as well.)

(BTW -- what's THOOLAH?)

I just think the Land and history, and happenings in the Land where TC is nowhere around is just too way much detail that does not include or involve TC. In Dreams, generally things happen in the NOW and do not require conjugation of so much backstory, only what is required for the current situation.

I think it would be a cop out on SRD's part to end the series
"... and then he woke up and said , "Gee, I never had leprosy after all! You want to pass me those raisins?"

I do think it is possible that the Land might have been created by Covenant in some strange way; perhaps it will turn out that his affliction with leprosy was coincidental with Foul's fall and emprisionment within the Arch, and that the two are indeed connected at that level. but if it was in fact so, then that world, including the Land, was/is independant enough to continue on and grow in his absence and after his RL death. And for some reason allowed Linden to show up afterward. which must be a bug.

More likely in my opinion, the Land and the world it is in will turn out to not be really defined any more than it is now, and our suspension of disbelief includes its existence and origins.

(BTW -- what's THOOLAH?)

The Holy Order of Linden Avery Haters.
Theres a couple of thread floating about which will let you understand it,

I said:

And for some reason allowed Linden to show up afterward. which must be a bug.

Hey! I must be a member!

Heres the main ones i think :

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9346

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8326

ht[url]tp://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9080[/url]

Thanks Warmark and everyone else for your comments. It gives me a lot to think about.

Here's the problem: it is impossible for the Land to be literally, physically real. Covenant's and Linden's bodies don't go anywhere when they are in the Land. They are still physically present in the "real" world. It is impossible for them to have two physical bodies. So how are they able to move about in the Land as if they were embodied? If you start supposing "astral" bodies for them while they are in the Land, then you are dealing with a reality that is less than physical . . . you might as well just call it a dream.

If you can't explain how they can physically be in two worlds simultaneously, then you can't account for the Land's reality. Period. But the supporters of a literal, physical Land ignore this little detail.

However, there IS an alternative between "it's all a dream" and "it's literally real." I think TC's creation is much more complex than that. I view the Land as a myth-world filled with universal archetypes. It is not literally real, but in a sense, it is MORE real than our world: it's metaphorical power touches upon truths that transcend individuals.

Here's what Donaldson has to say on the issue:

. . . the Land clearly exists in a different kind or order of reality than Covenant's "real world". In the Platonic sense, the Land is *more* real than Covenant's "real world."

This "Platonic sense" is connected to Plato's theory of the Forms, which are analogous to what I said above about universal archetypes which transcend individuals.

I'm dealing with a "reality" which is inextricably bound to the mind(s) of my protagonist(s). According the rules I've created, we simply *can't* have the Land without Covenant/Linden. It really would be cheating if I suddenly announced, "OK, I was just kidding about that whole maybe-it's-not-real, you-are-the-white-gold shtick. Let's pretend it never happened."

In "real" terms, of course, the only thing that really happens to Thomas Covenant - at least in the first three books - is that he gets knocked out a few times and wakes up willing to go on living.

Put simply, fantasy is a form of fiction in which the internal crises or conflicts or processes of the characters are dramatized as if they were external individuals or events. Crudely stated, this means that in fantasy the characters meet themselves - or parts of themselves, their own needs/problems/exigencies - as actors on the stage of the story, and so the internal struggle to deal with those needs/problems/exigencies is played out as an external struggle in the action of the story. A somewhat oversimplified way to make the same point is by comparing fantasy to realistic, mainstream fiction. In realistic fiction, the characters are expressions of their world, whereas in fantasy the world is an expressions of the characters. Even if you argue that realistic fiction is about the characters, and that the world they live in is just one tool to express them, it remains true that the details which make up their world come from a recognized body of reality – tables, chairs, jobs, stresses which we all acknowledge as being external and real, forceful on their own terms. In fantasy, however, the ultimate justification for all the external details arises from the characters themselves. The characters confer reality on their surroundings.

This is obviously true in "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant." The villain of the piece, Lord Foul, is a personified evil whose importance hinges explicitly on the fact that he is a part of Thomas Covenant. On some level, Covenant despises himself for his leprosy - so in the fantasy he meets that Despite from the outside; he meets Lord Foul and wrestles with him as an external enemy

I don't understand how we can ignore SRD's own words on this issue. Clearly, the Land is NOT literally real.

Isn't that why they cut the story of the bloodguard? They didn't want anything to be from anyone else's point of view. Now the whole last series is Lindens POV. Oh well I'm confused,...

Malik23 wrote:Here's the problem: it is impossible for the Land to be literally, physically real. Covenant's and Linden's bodies don't go anywhere when they are in the Land. They are still physically present in the "real" world. It is impossible for them to have two physical bodies.

That's really quite a lame argument.

When you watch Star Trek, do you say, It is impossible to travel faster than light? When you read Ringworld, do you say, It is impossible to contruct a ring of that size? When you watch Doctor Who, do you say, it is impossible to travel back in time?

The problem is that your appealing to "what is possible". And "what is possible" does not rule in a story.

In a story, the author stipulates what is real. There is FTL travel. There are substances with infinite tensile strength. There is time travel. And then he/she constructs his/her story. It doesn't matter if those things are possible or not: the reader suspends his disbelief and becomes engaged.

The question of the Lands "reality" is NOT about whether Covenant's journey is possible. The question is, does COVENANT believe it is possible? Or does he believe that it is not, that it must be a dream? That is what is of importance. Because that informs Covenant's reactions, which informs his decisions, which informs the story, which informs us.

If, as you watched Star Wars, Princess Amidala meets Jar Jar Binks, and says, gosh, you are too insipid to be real... I must be dreaming. And then, proceeding from that assumption, does some stuff ... THAT would be something akin to the question of the Land's Reality. No one would be arguing, Amidala must be dreaming, because this stupid creature is not real, it is just CGI. Because whether the viewer (or reader) considers Jar Jar to be real is pointless, and the answer is obvious, it is not. The question is, within the framework of the story, is Jar Jar real?

Within the framework of the Chronicles, is it possible for Covenant be "really" travelling to another Land by falling unconscious? The answer is, indubitably, YES, it is possible. Next Question.

Which DOESN'T mean that the Land is real to Covenant. It just means that you cannot figure it out THIS way.

- - - - -

No, I'm not ignoring Donaldson's words. I'm just applying them in the correct way.

As a work of Literature, Foul is Covenant's dark side.

Within the framework of the Story, he is a seperate being.

After all, it is not POSSIBLE for Covenant to be in two places at the same time.

Right?

Wayfriend, your science fiction examples aren't analogous to this fantasy issue. Time travel and faster-than-light travel are not possible today, but they are possible in principle. There are sound, scientific theories which ground these ideas even if we may never be able to put them into practice for technical reasons. However, having two physical bodies in two different worlds between which one's consciousness can travel . . . I don't believe there is any way to make sense of that idea. And if one tries to justify it in any technological manner or by means of a physical mechanism, then we're dealing with science fiction, not fantasy. [Granted, you're not saying this.]

And that is the point: SRD never meant for it to be literally possible, because he's writing fantasy, not s.f. In the GI, he has repeatedly noted a crucial difference between fantasy and s.f.: the former utilizes magic, while the latter utilizes technology. Technology requires a basis in reailty--at least in prinicple--while magic emerges as an expression of a person's will in a manner completely independent of external technology. Magic deals with symbolic unities, while technology deals with discrete mechanisms, in SRD's words.

SRD's description of fantasy eliminates a literal, physical understanding of what is essentially a "magical" event: TC's translation to the Land. Thus, my highlighting the issue of the impossibility of literally having two bodies is a sufficient way to illustrate the problem at hand: whether or not we're talking about a literally, physically real world. A literally, physically real interpretation would put this work of literature squarely within the realm of science fiction--according to SRD's definition--instead of fantasy. It is the sheer physical impossibility of such a state that allows his work to resist both a) a literal interpretation and b) a s.f. classification. There's nothing lame about my argument.

Admittedly, there are several levels from which to view this. Most of what I'm saying is from the perspective of a reader examinging a work of literature. There is also the perspective of the characters themselves, which seems to be the level from which you are viewing this. This availability of different levels contributes to us talking "around" each other, rather than "to" each other, confusing the issue.

So while the Donaldson quotes I've provided might arguably be from the reader perspective, the issue of TC's perspective is not as straightforward as you've implied. Even from TC's perspective, the reality of Lord Foul is certainly more complex than the reality of Jar Jar to Amidala. This issue was important enough for SRD to make it an issue within the story itself (in addition to being an issue for external, literary analysis). The fact that TC later comes to a "stalemate" with regards to this issue DOESN'T mean that he accepts the reality of the Land as literally real. It means he has left that question behind for more personally meaningful issues. However, it seems that many readers (not you) have taken this move as the author's blessing to interpret the Land as literally real even from the characters' perspectives, which is clearly not the case, and in fact misses the point.

I really do think our positions are similar, based on previous discussions. You've described TC's translation to the Land as a spiritual, rather than physical, event. I would say metaphorical instead of spiritual, but the distinction we are both trying to make from a straightforward literal reading is similar.

The way I look at it, is that TC created the Land.

No, TC isn't the Creator he created the Creator.

It might have been a dream at first, but when he finally came to the understanding that it doesn't matter if the dream is real or not (the end of TPTP)--it then became eral.

Therefore Lindeon going there with him wasn't all that difficult.

drew wrote:The way I look at it, is that TC created the Land.

No, TC isn't the Creator he created the Creator.

It might have been a dream at first, but when he finally came to the understanding that it doesn't matter if the dream is real or not (the end of TPTP)--it then became eral.

Therefore Lindeon going there with him wasn't all that difficult.

I like that theory.

Here's the problem: it is impossible for the Land to be literally, physically real. ...
If you can't explain how they can physically be in two worlds simultaneously, then you can't account for the Land's reality. Period. But the supporters of a literal, physical Land ignore this little detail.

Oh yeah? Who says? Just because you say that this problem is a binary solution set of exactly two possibilities: either explain how A is possible or therefore B is the answer doesn't mean anything... I have to agree with Wayfriend here. His examples might not be spot on, but the spirit of what he is trying to say is true. It is beyond ridiculous to propose that because FTL travel is possible in theory, therefore [WayFriends] argument doesn't hold water. That is just avoiding the issue.

We as readers do not have to account for anything, and the Author doesn't either! If we dont 'buy' his explanation, we don't read it and the book doesn't sell. But we as readers generally don't have to know every tiny details, and if SRD comments that TC figured out that the fact of the Land ultimately doesn't matter, then that is what we go with. There are many books where no technical details or reasoning is described to the reader at all. Hello: This is fantasy; what if the TC in the Land is another being and his consciousness was the only thing transported? What if the TC in the Land were just an Avatar? SRD hasnt specifically said it was exactly the same body atom for atom. I am not suggesting these are the explanations, I am just pointing out that there are many other possibilites to satisfy that the Land might be a real place in the books.

And, there is also supported evidence that a person can be in two places in principal, it has been done with atoms, demonstrating a well known (if little understood) property of Quantum Mechanics that says matter simultaneously exists in all states until directly observed (or something like that); Scientists have in fact been able to tease apart an atom's two distinct states, in two different (although close by) locations. Google it if you havent read about this. It follows that a person (ie all of the atoms in a person simultaneously) might be teased into two person-states, which is as principally sound as beaming someone up from a a planet or FTL Travel or the existance of something like Jar Jar Binks.

Yes SRD has things to say on this, however suspension of disbelief is central to this issue; you cannot apply sound laws of physics to a fantasy novel because , after all, it is a fantasy novel.

edited for spelling: At some level somewhere and somehow, I believe SRD's intention is that the Land exists; I do not see him writing himself of of the corner he will have created if he does not. Maybe he can beam himself out of it.

What about Quantum Teleportation? Just throwing things in there for people to chew on.

HLT wrote:

I think it's possible that the whole thing, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Chronicles could be one continuous dream.

To make this possible you have to throw out the whole idea that he ever really woke up at any point in the series.

Wouldn't that be just dreadful though? I mean, the whole 'and then he woke up with his head in a bowl of cornflakes, and realised the whole thing was just a dream' thing would have to be the MOTHER of all anticlimaxes after such a beutifully constructed, multifaceted epic capable of challenging conventionally limited notions and concepts of reality...

On second thoughts, he should do it. Two fingers up at literary and philosophical solipsism...? [/b]

Malik23 wrote:Wayfriend, your science fiction examples aren't analogous to this fantasy issue. Time travel and faster-than-light travel are not possible today, but they are possible in principle.

Then I apologize. By picking only science fiction examples, you seemed to think I was talking about science fiction. (And FTL is not possible in principle either.) I could pick Lord of the Rings, and point to immortal beings, and point to what divides The East from The West, and I could point to Rings of Power. None of which are "possible".

These are all things that the reader accepts as possible in the framework of the story, even though they are clearly not possible in real life.

How is it that we should accept that Beren, who died, was recalled from the Halls of Mandos to dwell once again in Beleriand? That he earned this gift by rescuing a gemstone which contains the light of Giant Trees, which once illuminated the whole world, before the sun was created? Which was captured by a giant talking spider, and were lately defended by a minor deity who transformed himself into wolf form? Who was helped by a talking dog, and a beautil woman who can sing a song which puts major deities to sleep?

But we should not accept that Covenant visited the Land?

Look, Malik, you've got yourself some serious double standards if you call Covenant's visiting the Land "impossible" in a fantasy.

Malik23 wrote:I really do think our positions are similar, based on previous discussions. You've described TC's translation to the Land as a spiritual, rather than physical, event. I would say metaphorical instead of spiritual, but the distinction we are both trying to make from a straightforward literal reading is similar.

Yes, it is metaphorical and spiritual --- to the reader. Within the framework of the story, it is quite real --- to Covenant, the protagonist. Covenant himself may ponder the spiritual and metaphorical significance of his translation, and may even wonder if it is a dream. But it DID happen to him.

ur-monkey wrote:HLT wrote:

I think it's possible that the whole thing, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Chronicles could be one continuous dream.

To make this possible you have to throw out the whole idea that he ever really woke up at any point in the series.

Wouldn't that be just dreadful though? I mean, the whole 'and then he woke up with his head in a bowl of cornflakes, and realised the whole thing was just a dream' thing would have to be the MOTHER of all anticlimaxes after such a beutifully constructed, multifaceted epic capable of challenging conventionally limited notions and concepts of reality...

On second thoughts, he should do it. Two fingers up at literary and philosophical solipsism...? [/b]

I'd be majorley annyoed if it was all a dream.