Runes, Prologue, Ch. 4: Malice

[Cybrweez]

I think there is a difference. In Covenant's case, it was a particular moment, when a child was in immediate danger. And at that time he still liked to tell himself he didn't believe in the Land anyway. Linden's attitude of Jeremiah and no one else seems a bit more drastic.

[Avatar]

Some excellent posts folks. I must say that I glossed over the incident in the police car for the exact reason that Murrin disagreed with WayFriends comments...I could easily believe that for Lytton, that was the whole and unvarnished truth.

The fact that he almost rushed through it is an indication of its truth to me, rather than the reverse, and no less brutal for all of that.

And as for Sandy, I think that "listening to the wind" may have been just as telling. If Foul can reach out to Roger, why not to Jeremiah as well? And as was pointed out, he already knew that "taste" of him as it were.

I have, I freely admit, been harsh on Linden in this chapter. But I think that Murrin again encapsulated exactly why:

an implication, a possibility. A potential within Linden's character, that might lead her to ignore everything that does not directly concern her immediate goal--stopping Roger; getting her son back. An attitude that would be nothing but destructive if she has it when she reaches the Land.

That's exactly what I feel. That Linden is so focused on getting back Jeremiah, that she won't care what else she does as long as it seems to be getting him back. No matter what damage it causes.

And as CybrWeez said, there are differences between her intent and TC's. Not only did Covenant act in the belief that he was putting the safety of a real child above that of an illusions, but we also know that harm can come of good intentions, no matter what the Lords charitably believed. (Or said they did.)

--A

[danlo]

Or what the Lords had to learn (i.e. patience, fortitude, the depths of their inner strenght, weighing OofP vs RofD, surviving without the Bloodguard). If TC had been summoned at once...how, really, could have Mhoram have achieved what he did...?

[Zarathustra]

I think Lytton told the truth to Linden. He told Joan he was putting her in the back because he didn't want to catch leprosy from her. Do you not see how brutal that is? Lytton couldn't have known, but Joan had been punishing herself for ten years for abandoning Covenant, for running away out of fear. Now, she has the same fear being directed towards herself, she is the one being put in the situation Covenant had been in. After everything, and in the fragile state she was in following her possession--and not to mention, combined with the knowledge that he had died, for her--that would have been crushing.

I think you've got it, Murrin. We don't have to speculate beyond Lytton's words, or suppose Ravers, or supernatural causes. What is SRD trying to say with this series? Well, for one: ordinary humans are particularly susceptible to despite, guilt, hopelessness, and hatred. Ravers and Lord Foul are just symbols of this. In TC's world--the "real" world--destructive emotions such as guilt for how you treated your husband during his greatest trial can be enough to drive you crazy, especially when that trial is thrust upon you indirectly in the form of another person treating you exactly how you treated him. I think SRD wants us to take away from all this fantasy the REAL fact that how we treat each other matters, and that the stake of our trials are our very "souls." I think he wants us to realize that some hick cop locking you in the back of a police car and telling you you're unclean is enough to drive you crazy--precisely when it is this sort of trigger that drives home your own crimes. Lytton treated her as a criminal, and she realized she HAD committed crimes against TC's soul. She abandoned him and retracted her promises of unconditional love because she was too weak, too afraid, to Be True. If you've missed that this is enough to drive you crazy, then (at the least) you're missing SRD's point, and (at the most) you haven't experienced enough pain and guilt to evaluate their power.

[danlo]

[Avatar]

Agreed danlo. Excellent post Malik.

And although I agree in a way with your post above that, I think that's more true from an external (i.e. storywriting) perspective.

Nobody in the story knew that the delay was necessary, if you know what I mean.

--A

[wayfriend]

We don't have to speculate beyond Lytton's words, or suppose Ravers, or supernatural causes.

And yet, this leaves unanswered the question of what happened to Joan in the police car. I find it hard to believe that anything natural happened, when the narrator goes out of his way to point out: she was okay getting in the car, she was a vegetable getting out.

I cannot credit that "the truth", and nothing but "the truth" (as it were), put Joan in a vegetative state for ten years. No author could expect that to be believable without buttressing the plausibility in some way which, in this case, is absent from the story.

Left to my own wits, I would say that Joan, having been tormented by Foul, knew what Foul wanted, knew Foul had it in for Covenant. If she knew nothing else, she knew that. And she knew that Covenant would pay the price to set her free.

"Oh, Tom," she quavered weakly. "I'm so sorry. I can't- He's in my mind, and I can't get him out. He hates you. He makes-makes me-"

"I know." His voice ached in the room. "I understand."

"Tom," she wept. "Tom. Help me."

"I will. As soon as he's ready. I'll get you free."

Therefore, I can see Joan being saddened by her husbands death. I think she may even feel guilt about it - although, given how she was tortured, I would say that that was a long way off.

But one thing that is certain is that she would not be shocked.

She abandoned him and retracted her promises of unconditional love because she was too weak, too afraid, to Be True. If you've missed that this is enough to drive you crazy, then (at the least) you're missing SRD's point, and (at the most) you haven't experienced enough pain and guilt to evaluate their power.

Well, thanks for telling me what I missed, I appreciate it.

And yet, I didn't miss that Joan had already had this crisis before she returned to Covenant. She had already faced this; Lytton wasn't telling her anything new or even putting a new light on it. I can't see this stunning her. In fact, I think that the time she spent with her husband while he cared for her went a long way towards coping with any guilt, if not ameliorating it.

[Relayer]

"Tom," she wept. "Tom. Help me."

"I will. As soon as he's ready. I'll get you free."

Interesting. I'd forgotten this line... it's almost exactly what Roger tells her at the beginning of ROTE. What implications does this have in/for the Land?

an implication, a possibility. A potential within Linden's character, that might lead her to ignore everything that does not directly concern her immediate goal--stopping Roger; getting her son back. An attitude that would be nothing but destructive if she has it when she reaches the Land.

That's exactly what I feel. That Linden is so focused on getting back Jeremiah, that she won't care what else she does as long as it seems to be getting him back. No matter what damage it causes.

I agree too. I wasn't clear about that in my earlier post... she keeps thinking this thought, that "these actions cannot hurt the Land, and TC told me so..." almost like she's trying to make it true in this situation too. When it clearly (to us) might not be. And,

Spoiler

as we find out later, the Ranyhyn and Masters also agree that her choices could easily destroy the Land. Though at least the Ranyhyn choose to trust her anyway.

R

[Zarathustra]

She abandoned him and retracted her promises of unconditional love because she was too weak, too afraid, to Be True. If you've missed that this is enough to drive you crazy, then (at the least) you're missing SRD's point, and (at the most) you haven't experienced enough pain and guilt to evaluate their power.

Well, thanks for telling me what I missed, I appreciate it.

I wasn't directing my comment to you directly, just to anyone who failed to come to Murrin's conclusion. But since he was responding to you, I can see how you took it this way. My apologies, Wayfriend. My tone wasn't appropriate for a dissection. I've been spending too much time in the Tank.

However, I do think you are underestimating the power of guilt and the position she was in. Lytton put her in the back of a police car. Like a criminal. What was her "crime?" Well, to him, it was that she might be a leper. And it highlighted the fact that she HAD committed "crimes" against her husband: she'd done the same thing Lytton was doing to her. Given the fact that TC's experiences in the Land can be traced back directly to the single act he feels the most guilt about (raping Lena), I think we cannot overestimate the power of guilt, for this author.

Also, paralysis is a recurring theme. Linden could lapse into passivity just from being scared and appalled. I think when you are the cause of what you perceive to be evil, this can lead to you punishing yourself with an even greater abrogation of your will.

[wayfriend]

Sam Kinison does this sketch where he dies and goes to hell. A demon takes him on a tour of hell, trying to scare the daylights out of him. But Sam seems to shrug everything off, yawning at times. Finally the demon says, Geez, pal, doesn't anything in hell scare you? And Sam says "I was married for two years." The demon catches on. Ah, I see.

Joan had been tormented by Lord Foul. Her soul was laid waste. She walked across country at his urging. He possessed her. She sucked Covenant's blood in order to bring release from the rack he laid her on.

Do you really credit that Joan would find Lytton intimidating?

[Zarathustra]

Do you really credit that Joan would find Lytton intimidating?

Not at all. But I think his actions were the equivalent of holding a metaphysical mirror up to her. She was appalled at herself, and retreated into herself. It wasn't even that one act, but the culmination of everything that had gone before. Maybe she learned that she has her own personal Despiser within her, and didn't want it getting out anymore.

But I could be wrong.

[I'm Murrin]

It depends on how she felt about the possession. It could be that, to her, even if she was possessed and forced to do those things, she felt as thought she did them herself. That even though she was compelled, she believed it was through some fault of her own. In that case, it would make her more fragile when, to use Malik's words from above, a mirror was held up to her actions.

[Zarathustra]

Murrin, you make a good point about the possession. Sure, it could be an easy way for her to excuse her actions during TWL, but I bet most of us would still be horrified at ourselves even if we had this "excuse," much the same way Giants were horrified that they could be possessed by a Raver. Just look at how harshly they judged themselves after this. They sat passively in their homes and allowed themselves to be killed one-by-one, even their children, due to their horror at their own weakness. If all the giants could do this merely out of "sympathic guilt," just imagine how powerful it would be when you were the one being possessed yourself. Possession is NOT an excuse for one's actions during possession, becuase it highlights how weak and vulnerable we were to begin with.

But anyway, I wasn't even talking about her actions during her possession, but rather her actions which led TC to the despair and isolation which began this entire epic: rejecting him due to his mortality. The irony had to be too much for her, given the fact that he gave in to his own mortality to save her.

[Avatar]

Excellent posts everybody. Some very interesting reading.

--A

[Avytaya]

Hi all,
I'm finally catching up here. Regular lurker and occasional posted, but re-reading Runes specifically for this discussion.
Anyway, about what Lytton says to Linden. It is harsh and cruel and I think he intended it to be so, but is it enough to send her into a comatose state? I think under "normal" circumstances what he says would trigger long-term depression, despair, and guilt, but a vegatative state? Which leads me to believe that something else is going on there. Maybe her despair was so great that it allowed access for a raver, or possesser to occupy her. Or maybe the raver "showed" something to her so shocking so horrible it was incomprehensible- like Seadreamer prehaps?
Ok, so as I understand this Foul cannot come into Joan's world without destroying the Arch of Time. But maybe he can use his fiends to touch Joan, Roger, and Jeremiah? Is it possible that he is using Elena to achieve this? Elena is a paradox in herself because she is part of TC's world and part of the land, so would that give Foul access? I don't know-just throwing some ideas out there.
-avy

[Avatar]

An interesting point about Elena certainly, although we do not know if the dead can cross from the Land to the "real" world, nor do we have any clue to suggest her involvement.

As for Joan and Lytton...perhaps it wasn't enough, but then, are we assuming she was just fine before she got into the car? I doubt it. Perhaps it was more along the lines of the straw that broke the camels back?

--A

[wayfriend]

Avatar ... Avytaya ... any relation?

Foul CAN reach into our world, as he was the one who possessed Joan in the Second Chronicles. At the time, though, he was the only one strong enough in the Land-verse to do so.

It's possible that Ravers can now act in our world, or maybe the Dead such as Elena ... but if so, it represents either an increase in their strength, or a decrease in the strength of the boundary between realities. (And I'm thinking it's the latter... See chapter 5.)

[Avatar]

None whatsoever.

Either possibility is an unpleasant one I think.

--A

[matrixman]

Hey, people, talk about Elena all you want. Have I mentioned I like Elena? Well, preferably as an alive human being, but Dead is okay, too, since being dead in the Land just means you get to appear out of nowhere and impress living folk with riddles while you walk around being wrapped in a cool, glowing aura. As you can tell, I'm just padding my post, as I've got nothing of substance to add.

Just wanted to compliment you, Av, on an outstanding dissection. Actually, I think I should curse you. Damn, you're going to make me redo all mine from TWL and TOT just so I can overcome my feelings of inadequacy. (Well, okay, I've always had those feelings, but you're not helping things with your bloody good postings. Forget that Jeremiah kid, let me lie down on this here couch and talk about my childhood...all right, maybe not.)

]It's possible that Ravers can now act in our world, or maybe the Dead such as Elena ... but if so, it represents either an increase in their strength, or a decrease in the strength of the boundary between realities.

Sounds pretty cool either way! Bring it on, Mr. Donaldson. Er, bring on the Dead. Or whatever.

[wayfriend]

Sign up, MM!!