Runes, Prologue, Ch. 4: Malice

[Avatar]

Just wanted to compliment you, Av, on an outstanding dissection. Actually, I think I should curse you.

Thanks MM. And you shouldn't complain, you're half the reason I decided to do it...I couldn't live with your moral superiority over my neglect of the dissections. (The other half of the reason was danlo...especially since he relaxed his long-standing policy to avoid the 'Tank. )

You haven't signed up for a chapter yet? I'm really surprised. Enjoyed reading the ones you did for the 2nd Chrons. Listen to WayFriend...sign up.

--A

[dlbpharmd]

Listen to WayFriend...sign up.

YES! We still have several chapters open.

[CorruptionWearsManyFaces]

I can certainly see the cruel treatment that Lytton inflicts upon Joan pushing someone over the edge, as many above pointed out much better than I could. The issue that may be tugging at people that perhaps more happened, and that somehow Lytton was involved, is perhaps the issue that Joan is not simply real world crazy. She is somehow connected to what is happening as SRD shows in her conversation with Roger from earlier in the the book. Remeber those "stop complaining yada yada you know I had to wait until I was 21 yada yada I've been good --make it stop" (obviously not direct quotes but I hope you see the point). Which is that Joan's state seems to be more than something that Lytton's treatment of her could induce.

Sam Kinison does this sketch where he dies and goes to hell. A demon takes him on a tour of hell, trying to scare the daylights out of him. But Sam seems to shrug everything off, yawning at times. Finally the demon says, Geez, pal, doesn't anything in hell scare you? And Sam says "I was married for two years." The demon catches on. Ah, I see

That guy was funny. I believe in that story the demon offers him a job once he discovers he was married.

T

[Avatar]

Welcome to the Watch.

So what was it you think then that induced Joan's state? Foul's direct influence? A Raver?

Of simply the run of events that culminated in her participation in the murder of her own husband?

--A

[CorruptionWearsManyFaces]

Thanks for the welcome
What induced her state I am unsure. Was it the events as described by Lytton coupled with her own culpability in the events? Maybe. But her current state seems clearly influenced by Foul or a raver or in some way such as happened to the Community of Retribution and to Joan herself previously.

Was what happened in her brief time with Lytton after TC's death the whole cause of her current state? I don't know. Perhaps everything happened in that one car ride. Perhaps something happened later. It seems that there are several instances where her behavior changes:
1-The Lytton incident--which seems to have simply left her in some sort of 'real world' mental imbalance
2- Some years(? not sure of the exact timing of this) later she becomes more vegetative which I believe Linden described as a very atypical state.
3- About 1 year prior to ROTE she begins to punch her skull in. This one seems definately influenced by possesion or some long reach of Foul. Hence the mysterious unexplainable freeing of her restraints.

I really have no clue what initially induced her state follwing the end of WGW. But, I feel certain that she is currently influenced by Foul, either directly or indirectly.
T

[wayfriend]

I believe that the text indicates that 1- and 2- above happened at the same time.

[Avatar]

Well, it says that prior to her encounter with Lytton she was at least responsive/conscious/whatever, whereas after it she was in an almost vegetative state.

I think it's unlikely that she would be in the possession of a Raver immediately after Foul's defeat, so I have to assume that it was her culpability, (i.e. her actions while influenced (which perhaps she couldn't understand, it not being entirely voilitional) ) combined with Lytton's brutality that drove her into it.

--A

[wayfriend]

Foul CAN reach into our world, as he was the one who possessed Joan in the Second Chronicles. At the time, though, he was the only one strong enough in the Land-verse to do so.

It's possible that Ravers can now act in our world, or maybe the Dead such as Elena ... but if so, it represents either an increase in their strength, or a decrease in the strength of the boundary between realities. (And I'm thinking it's the latter... See chapter 5.)

I'm quoting myself because I want to post this new, relevant GI answer.

Annie Wood: How did Lord Foul get ahold of fanatics in Thomas Covenant's world? I remember reading how they "invoked" Foul by putting their hands in the bonfire, but don't remember if it was stated how he was able to communicate with them in the first place.

I have enjoyed reading all of the books about Thomas Covenant, (many times over), and am thrilled that there are more to come. I have already read the first book in the Last Chronicles Of Thomas Covenent and can hardly wait for the next one to become available.

Thanks!
Annie Wood

• I suppose you could say that "like responds to like": those fanatics were already Despiser-surrogates of a sort, so they were easily influenced. Or I suppose you could say that the barriers between realities are breaking down, thanks to LF's original abuse of Drool and the Staff of Law. Or I suppose you could say that some things are better left to the reader's imagination. <rueful smile>
  
  (09/27/2007)

I think the answer is D) all of the above!

[Zarathustra]

(As I said in the General Interview thread . . . )
Very interesting! Notice how he works to maintain the "reality" ambiguity. "Already Despiser-surrogates of a sort" could be used to maintain the Despiser-in-all-of-us interpretation, so that the appearance of the Despiser in the bonfire was just a symbolic representation of something inherent within these people. On the other hand, the "barriers between realities" lends itself to a more literal interpretation. But in the end, he let's us choose which interpretation we impose with "left to the reader's imagination."

[wayfriend]

"There are two completely different explanations," he said as evenly as he could. "Outside and inside."

I think that both SRDs explanations are true. One is the "inside explanation", and one is the "outside explanation".

And we have to believe them both equally.

So, as far as I'm concerned, the barriers between worlds are breaking down.

I continue to wonder if, untimately, it put's Covenant's real world in jeapardy in some way.

[Zarathustra]

Yes, I'd agree that the barriers between the "worlds" are breaking down, as long as it's understood that both worlds are not on equal footing, ontologically speaking. Instead, we have a breakdown between symbol and what is being symbolized, a blurring between literal and metaphorical. But that has been happening since the beginning, back when Covenant came face to face with his own despite in the form of an external character. In this sense, this type of fantasy story is inherently a blurring between two worlds.

However, I suspect that something even more paradoxical is in store for us.