Codes and Ciphers

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peter
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Codes and Ciphers

Post by peter »

Does anyone know enough about cryptography to verify or refute the following. I believe a code differs from a cipher in that it requires a 'key' to be solved. eg Hashi and I could have an agreed edition of say Lord Fouls Bane to refer to, and then could communicate secretly via page, line and word numbers pertaining to each word of our message, and only knowledge of the edition of LFB {this being the key or code-book} would ever enable an adversary to 'crack' the code. Once however the code book is known the encryption is useless.

A cypher on the other hand requires no 'code-book' as such because it relies on a manipulation of the letters of a message in such a way as to render them nonsensical to anyone other than the intended recipient, who simply performs the same manipulation, but in reverse in order to reveal the messages meaning. Examples of such manipulations might be reversing the alphabet to make z equate to a, y to b, x to c.... and so on, or we might shift the letters of the alphabet by any number of letters to the right or left - say make a be c, b be d and c be e ....etc. Much more complex manipulations can be devised, particularly using computers, that make such ciphers almost impossible to crack, but apparently all languages have tell-tale clues that enable code-breakers to get a finger hold through the door toward doing so. In english for example a single letter in an encrypted cypher would almost have to be 'a'. Certain letters nearly always occur together [q followed by u for eg] and letter frequency analysis that once known, allow for tentative identification of letters within the cypher. Gradually using such small advances a cypher can be broken down [sometimes] and its message revealed. The enigma code was broken when the Bletchley team realised that words like 'the weather report' and 'heil hitler' could be guarrenteed to be in certain messages and this was the hairline fault they prised their fingers into in order to break it.

Another way of encryption might be by hiding the real message within a framework of nonsense letters such that only a person who knows which letters to read could reveal the message. It could be as simple as 'every fouth letter, or I might for example agree with V. that 'pi' would be the key [?]. In this case when recieving a message he would read the third letter[3], the fourth [1], the eigth [4], the ninth [1].....etc. I'm not sure how this kind of encryption [is this a code or a cypher?] could be broken without knowledge of the 'key'.

The methods of deciphering encrypted messages can equally be used in the elucidation and translation of acient and forgotten scripts. Champillion was able to crack the meaning of ancient egyptian heiroglyphs by virtue of the use of cartouches to encircle the pharoes name on the Rosetta stone. The three scripts of the stone [heiroglyph, greek and demotic I think] two of which were understood, enabled him to elucidate the third [I expect I've oversimplified this but I believe it was something like that].

What a fascinating subject. If anyone has any observations about where I might be adrift or indeed any further information to add I'd be gratefull to hear it. Perhaps we could even try a few out for fun. :)
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Post by wayfriend »

Codes generally operate on semantics (meaning) while ciphers operate on syntax (symbols). A code is stored as a mapping in a codebook, while ciphers transform individual symbols according to an algorithm.
So both codes and ciphers require a key. In the case of ciphers, the algorithm requires some sort of shared key. The algorithm itself us usually public knowledge, because it's useless without the key. On this is the internet built.

What I find amazing is the invention of the public/private key pair. It's a cipher that is encrypted with one key, and can only be decrypted with a different key. And more, if you know one key, you cannot figure out the other key! And even more more, the same thing happens when you switch the keys around!!! Whoever figured that out is pretty amazing.

This is pretty important stuff. You make one key public knowledge, and keep the other key private.
+ Now anyone can encrypt messages with a public key, and only the owner of the private key can read it.
+ Now anyone can receive a message encrypted with the private key, and decode it with the public key ... it's not secret, but it proves who sent it!
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Post by peter »

The subject is clearly highly complex Wayfriend, and grounded in mathematics that is way above my level of achievement. I don't understand how for example Turing could ever have devised a machine to break a cypher in a language he did not even understand. It implies some deep connection between language and mathematics that must go beyond, but be accessible via either. What is this relationship and why/how is it there?
Last edited by peter on Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by peter »

The subject is clearly highly complex Wayfriend, and grounded in mathematics that is way above my level of achievement. I don't understand how for example Turing could ever have devised a machine to break a cypher in a language he did not even understand. It implies some deep connection between language and mathematics that must go beyond, but be accessible via either. What is this relationship and why/how is it there?

edit; Why also, do non computer generated encryptions still foil our attempts to decipher them - the Voynitch Manuscript being a case in point; I would have expected that the advent of 'computing power' would have almost instantly overcome anything that could have been merely hand and brain encrypted [similarly with as yet undeciphered languages?
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

wayfriend wrote: What I find amazing is the invention of the public/private key pair. It's a cipher that is encrypted with one key, and can only be decrypted with a different key. And more, if you know one key, you cannot figure out the other key! And even more more, the same thing happens when you switch the keys around!!! Whoever figured that out is pretty amazing.

This is pretty important stuff. You make one key public knowledge, and keep the other key private.
+ Now anyone can encrypt messages with a public key, and only the owner of the private key can read it.
+ Now anyone can receive a message encrypted with the private key, and decode it with the public key ... it's not secret, but it proves who sent it!
You can take it up one more level and get creative. You and I both start with keys A and B so I send you a message and as part of the message I send you key C. The message you send back to me is encrypted with keys B and C but also contains key D. I reply, encrypting the message using keys C and D, including the new key E, and so on and so forth. Every time we send a message the keys are changing so even if someone found out what A, B, and C are by the time we are on keys E and F those older keys are useless.

To hide encrypted text such as "the" or "i" or "a" older codes used to break up the letters into blocks of 5.

The best encryption algorithms will rely on both semantics and syntax and is the method I use; they will also use multiple relatively simple methods to produce a system of staggering complexity. Remember that old practice sentence from typing, "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog"? Remove all the duplicated letters and all the spaces to condense it and rearrange the letters into "teqikonxmslzdhucbrwfjpvayg"; now to encode "hashi" it would be 14 24 10 14 4. At this point you can still tell that the first and fourth letters are the same, so you multiply each number by the number to its immediate right (the number on the end would be multiplied by the first number) to get 336 240 140 56 56; again, the last two numbers are the same but that isn't relevant any more because the numbers don't seem to follow a pattern. You could even reduce these numbers to hex and wind up with 0150 00f0 008c 00338 0038; as another layer you could OR or XOR this with some bit mask to change the result. No individual step was difficult but all taken together makes for a system that is difficult to crack--someone trying to reverse-engineer the encryption would have to be able to figure out and reverse-engineer every step you took. Note: this is not the system I use but it is the same thought process that devised the system I use.

Other options include converting to a foreign language before encrypting or taking advantage of things like our atiliby to mix up all ltretes but the frsit and lsat yet siltl bnieg albe to raed nmrlaoly.

The problem with translating or understanding things like Voynich is in understanding the logic which went into its creation. The fact that the book has sections on astronomy/astrology and cosmology, as well as as-yet-unidentified plants leads me to believe that it is some sort of alchemical allegory. If, indeed, it were penned by an alchemist then its author might have been insane from chemical exposure--it could be nothing more than gibberish with no real underlying meaning whatsoever.
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Post by peter »

:clap: :clap:
That post is pure Hashi speak and I love it! Immediate nomination for 'post of the month' if there is such a thing.

(ps. I really want the Voynich to not be just gibberish - is there no clue that this might not be so?)
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
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