Oscars controversy.....again!

[wayfriend]

Also, there is equality of opportunity, and equality of outcome. These get confused when someone tries to make the former (the American Ideal) seem to be the latter in order to oppose it (without seeming Un-American).

[I'm Murrin]

The people eligible to vote are 94% white, which hardly seems representative of the acting profession. Note that membership doesn't just require you to have been in qualifying roles, but also to be endorsed by an existing member.

94% is hardly a figure to pin racisim on!

The US population is 64% white. So you think it seems right that 36% of the population is represented in only 6% of the Academy members?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

94% is hardly a figure to pin racisim on!

The US population is 64% white. So you think it seems right that 36% of the population is represented in only 6% of the Academy members?

I suspect Rune is being sarcastic (or at least facetious) here.

Also, there is equality of opportunity, and equality of outcome. These get confused when someone tries to make the former (the American Ideal) seem to be the latter in order to oppose it (without seeming Un-American).

We already have equality of opportunity, which is the only guarantee that we are supposed to make as a nation. The door being open to anyone is the only goal we need pursue.

Equality of outcome....well, there is no guarantee here and we should never try to make it so that outcomes are equal for everyone. Not everyone who wants to become <insert career path> will be successful at doing so. That isn't racist; it is reality--the random roll of the dice. Can everyone who wants to become a singer become a singer? No (you really wouldn't want to hear me sing). Can everyone who wants to act become an award-winning actor? No, of course not. Can everyone who wants to becomes a successful businessperson become one? No, of course not. This has nothing to do with race.

[JIkj fjds j]

I suspect Rune is being sarcastic (or at least facetious) here.

Not intentionally, I assure you.

Just because there is a differential percentage between racial types of actors shouldn't mean there is intentional bias or even racism in their voting.

If anything, I was probably being naive.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

No worries. I just like using the word "facetious"--it is the shortest word in the English language to contain all five vowels in alphabetic order.

[wayfriend]

While it's not repressive to dismiss demands for equal outcome, it is repressive to mischaracterize demands for equal opportunity as demands for equal outcome in order to justify responding dismissively.

It's not invalid to consider outcomes in order to evaluate opportunity. When there is less opportunity, outcomes correspond.

When there are zero nominations over the span of years, that's an indication that opportunity is the issue. It's valid.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

It's not invalid to consider outcomes in order to evaluate opportunity. When there is less opportunity, outcomes correspond.

When there are zero nominations over the span of years, that's an indication that opportunity is the issue. It's valid.

I do not disagree with this assessment. Like I said, we should be taking a look at the people who do the nominating and the voting here.

[I'm Murrin]

I suspect Rune is being sarcastic (or at least facetious) here.

Not intentionally, I assure you.

Just because there is a differential percentage between racial types of actors shouldn't mean there is intentional bias or even racism in their voting.

If anything, I was probably being naive.

It's not that people are being deliberately racist; it's that when discrepancies such as the proportion of white voters, and the proportion of white nominees, exist, it is usually because of unexamined biases or a failure to address past discrimination. Protesting inequality of this kind is an attempt to get people to acknowledge and work to address these things.

[wayfriend]

I tend to believe the problem starts way before voting. I think that the producers of Oscar-bait movies play what they consider to be safe bets with the casting. Occasionally you see movies like The Help or Twelve Years a Slave or even Captain Phillips, which demand certain casting choices, and those actors get some acclaim ... but this rarely translates into further roles that garner further acclaim.

[sgt.null]

the Oscars have failed to reward the right movies, directors, actors many times before. why would we be surprised that their voting body be suspect of not being in touch with the times?

[Zarathustra]

Rich, famous people having sour grapes about meaningless awards. Who gives a fuck? First world problems of the extreme upper class. This whole thread is bullshit.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Rich, famous people having sour grapes about meaningless awards. Who gives a fuck? First world problems of the extreme upper class. This whole thread is bullshit.

I thought I pretty much said that, only not in those exact words.

[Rigel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ospx7tXWYbI

hee hee hee
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[Rigel]

Am I only allowed one quote per post? I have a condensed reply that responds to several things in this thread, but KW keeps giving me an error when I try to post it.

[Rigel]

People sitting in the seats don't really care too much about the race/ethnicity and/or gender of the lead role; all they really care about is whether or not there were enough explosions

I'm not really sure that's the case... I've read plenty of accounts of people, or people with children, finally getting to see a movie with a protagonist they can relate with, and how profound it was for them.

Perhaps the issue is, well, less of an issue when you already have representation in media? That is, you don't notice the abundance of characters from your demographic because you have them, but you definitely notice if there aren't ANY protagonists for you to identify with.

[Rigel]

That is why I cited the group of people who nominate movies and actors for awards: all of them are white; therefore, if there is a problem with a lack of diversity in the Academy Awards it starts with those people, not the people who go to the movie theaters to see movies.

I find it odd that some people (read: the public) think the Oscars are in any way democratic. These are industry awards, by industry insiders. By and large, the members of the Academy are old white men, so the nominees tend to be old white men and young white women.

[Rigel]

Perhaps if Hollywood made decent movies with new, original content and quit crunching out sequels and reboots all the time more of us might actually care about the awards show. As it is, though, I couldn't care less who gets nominated or who gets left out for whatever reason.

You might not care, but the people who work on those movies do. A lot of the things that happen in Hollywood are precisely because people care more about recognition for their achievements than they do about money.

[Rigel]

We already have equality of opportunity

It's so cute that you think this is true.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

We already have equality of opportunity

It's so cute that you think this is true.

Let us proceed with a standard mathematical concept: proof by contradiction. For the sake of argument, let us presume that the opposite of my statement is true, that there is *not* equal opportunity for a particular job or career. If that is true then it should be trivial to find examples of this. I leave that part up to you--let us see if you can find examples of jobs or careers where race prevents someone from entering that job or career.

If, however, on the other hand, you cannot find any examples then the original assumption is false and thus the statement "we already have equality of opportunity" is affirmed as true.

[wayfriend]

I leave that part up to you--let us see if you can find examples of jobs or careers where race prevents someone from entering that job or career.

Are you suggesting that there is equality of opportunity when all races can work at a job but only some races are rewarded with raises or promotions or bonuses?

I believe you actually are.

But if you are not, then you have had people showing you an example for several weeks now. "The Oscars."

Of course, you have been arguing it's not an example, using logic that would have ANY example not really be an example, by which we can deduce that it's impossible by your standards to even HAVE an example. It would only be "a claim".

Which makes your proposal a rather empty gesture.