Oscars controversy.....again!

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Hashi Lebwohl
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

wayfriend wrote:Are you suggesting that there is equality of opportunity when all races can work at a job but only some races are rewarded with raises or promotions or bonuses?

I believe you actually are.

But if you are not, then you have had people showing you an example for several weeks now. "The Oscars."
"Equality of opportunity" has nothing to do promotions or bonuses because those happen after getting the job.

"The Oscars" is not a job and it is not a career. It is an industry-insider, let's-pat-ourselves-on-the-back, look-at-our-shiny-award-for-not-working-very-hard ceremony that is vapid and meaningless. If you wish to pretend that it means something then, by all means, continue to do so. The rest of us will ignore the Oscars given its meaningless status.

The Law of Fives. If you look for racism long enough, hard enough, and with enough creativity you will find it everywhere, even in places where it doesn't exist. This is 2016, not 1956, so I would advise remembering that--racism does not exist like it did back then so people need to quit acting as if it does. That being said, I will not stop anyone from wanting to continue to live in the past....
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Post by wayfriend »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
wayfriend wrote:Are you suggesting that there is equality of opportunity when all races can work at a job but only some races are rewarded with raises or promotions or bonuses?

I believe you actually are.

But if you are not, then you have had people showing you an example for several weeks now. "The Oscars."
"Equality of opportunity" has nothing to do promotions or bonuses because those happen after getting the job.
You couldn't be more wrong. Opportunity includes the opportunity to advance from an entry position. Opportunity includes the opportunity to be rewarded for work well done. Anyone else in the world would say that "Only people who are race XYZ will be offered a raise for their good work" is fundamentally bigoted.
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:"The Oscars" is not a job and it is not a career. It is an industry-insider, let's-pat-ourselves-on-the-back, look-at-our-shiny-award-for-not-working-very-hard ceremony that is vapid and meaningless.
Your argument only seems to work because you decorate it with demeaning comments. Conclusion: your asking us to judge the Oscars, not for what they are, but for what you paint them to be. Therefore, it's not a valid argument.

Oscars are an award for a job well done, like any other bonus in any other job. Like any other bonus in any other job, it reflects merit, but it also depends on an opportunity to demonstrate one's merit. Every actor should have the same opportunity to earn an Oscar, and earn all that having an Oscar brings - fame, money, future contracts, etc.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

The Academy Awards is an insiders-only event. The movies and actors are originally nominated by industry insiders, they are voted upon by industry insiders, and the event itself is attended mostly by industry insiders and some wealthy non-industry guests.

I do agree that someone who thinks that promotions should be based on race is a racist. Almost as racist as the guys who vote for the Oscars. Almost as racist as the Congressional Black Caucus. Almost as racist as the BET Awards.
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Post by wayfriend »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:The Academy Awards is an insiders-only event.
In most jobs, bonuses, promotions, and pay increases are decided by "insiders". The Oscars are no different.
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Almost as racist as the Congressional Black Caucus. Almost as racist as the BET Awards.
The Elevated Discourse part of the show seems to be over now.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

The elevated discourse never ends.

I do admit that the CBC and the BET Awards prove me wrong on one point: racism is clearly still alive and well in the United States. The only thing that has changed is that instead of white-on-black racism it is now black-on-everyone-else.

The Oscars don't matter. They impact no one's lives other than Hollywood insiders. As Zarathustra noted, whining like a spoiled child over the Oscars is a ridiculous First World Problem. The fact that people still think they matter after 3 pages in this thread is just as ridiculous.

Standing on a street corner shouting "racism exists" doesn't make racism exist. Look at the world as it actually exists. I cant' say it often enough (even though I have to keep updating the numbers as time goes by)--this is 2016, not 1956. Most of us don't give a damn about race any more because we have more important things to worry about.
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Post by Cail »

Why are raises, promotions, and bonuses being compared to the Oscars? None of those things are conferred when one receives a statue.

This is foofery. This is a bunch of movies that no one's seen being slapped on the back.

You want to get upset about injustice against blacks? Try starting with the 51 murders in Chicago during the month of January.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Exactly.

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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

When I first heard of these complaints my initial reaction was derision and perfunctory dismissal.

Having just seen Straight Outta Compton yesterday and a second time today, I absolutely, positively understand what is being said. Straight Outta Compton is a masterpiece, easily the best and most important, topical, and relevant movie of 2015. Jason Mitchell, who plays Eazy-E, gives a magnificent performance out of compelling subject matter. The movie was produced and directed largely by black people including Dr. Dre and Ice Cube. The director was able to elicit trenchant yet subtle analogies between the drug game in the hood and the wider world of the record business, while also successfully implying that N.W.A and its individual members are walking metaphors of the contemporary black experience in America. It's all a bit intoxicating in its fecund, seminal glory. Police brutality and the way it interacts with the ghetto mindset is a contemporary subject of transcendent importance, and this movie elucidates it in a way that is both comprehensive and subtle. Yet perhaps its core motif is the unrelenting exploitation of blacks by patronizing white businessmen. Taken as a whole it is, largely, the story of contemporary blacks in America. This is easily the best and most important biopic seen in many years.

In spite of all this, and also ironically in view of its subject matter, the only people nominated were the white screenwriters. Please consider the following quote from an anonymous member of the academy:

"Nobody can accuse the Academy of being racist -- but they can be accused of being out of touch with the younger generation," he said. "Straight Outta Compton is a masterpiece, probably the best biopic since Amadeus -- but many if not most of the Academy can't fathom songs like 'F**k the Police.' I know many members who wouldn't even see the film because it represented a culture that they detest or, more accurately, they assume they detest."
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Post by peter »

This I accept in full and will make a point of seeing the film asap.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Doc Hexnihilo wrote:Straight Outta Compton is a masterpiece, easily the best and most important, topical, and relevant movie of 2015.
That's, like, your opinion, man. 8)

The Oscars aren't a measure of merit, they're a measure of one tiny group of insiders' opinions. Preferences. You can't put a quota on people's subjective impressions. If the members of the Academy don't like movies about black culture, so what? I don't like rap music. Does that make me racist? No. It's a personal preference. A tiny group of business insiders having similar preferences isn't surprising, much less controversial. It's OKAY to not like art from particular cultures or groups. Let's stop policing people's opinions.

No group of people has a right to force you or me to like their work. We are each free to like or dislike what we want. Not only does this "right" not exist, but it's literally impossible to enforce preferences. Which members of the Academy should have changed their minds? Which ones were the racists? Would they all have to vote for the black movie? Is it okay for some to disagree with you that it was a masterpiece? If it's okay for some to disagree, then why not all of them? At what point does it become racism? How do we know that some of the members didn't agree with you? Just because it wasn't nominated or didn't win doesn't mean some didn't try to nominate it. And if some of the group agrees with you, how can we label them collectively as racist? How do we know that the other ones didn't genuinely think it was subpar, completely aside from race?

Like I said, impossible. People are not thinking about this rationally at all.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

The oscars influence what films get made and promoted, and which films the public choose to see, which makes them far more relevant than to just the people nominating and voting. Representation matters, for everyone who goes to see movies.
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Post by wayfriend »

LA Times wrote:Why the #OscarsSoWhite fuss matters

After years of fighting dwindling ratings and patchy box office to prove their relevance, the people behind the Oscar ceremony had relevance thrust upon them.

Announced at a time already roiling with issues surrounding race and gender, the overwhelmingly white and male nominee lists for this year's awards sparked criticism, controversy, a potential boycott and an apologetic response from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Nor should we be surprised that the criticism, controversy, boycott and response have sparked a response just as heated.

Awards are objective measures of excellence, goes one argument; female writers and directors or actors of color should not be shoehorned onto nominee lists just to provide some politically correct vision of diversity.

Others defend the academy, pointing out that the homogeneous nature of the nominee lists is less a reflection of voter bias than the equally homogeneous nature of this year's films.

And a growing chorus wants to know why anyone really cares. With all the troubles in the world, do we really need to worry that a bunch of relatively rich and privileged filmmakers are mad that their movies didn't get an Oscar nomination?

So what if the nominees for the Academy Awards continue to be overwhelmingly male and white; professional basketball is overwhelmingly male and black. What does it matter?

Well, it matters because film is art, and art matters.

The stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, the images we choose to create and share reveal who we are - our hopes, our fears, our secrets, strengths and shortcomings.

When we praise and reward certain stories or images, whether by big box office or gold statuary, we reveal what we as a society value, the kinds of people we find interesting, the characteristics we revere and revile. We show the paths we hope to choose or avoid and the lessons we have learned, or not learned, from history.

One could argue that there are plenty of films, and even more television series, offering a wider range of stories and characters than those nominated for Oscars, so who cares what the still-homogeneous body of voters, with its even narrower professional breakdowns, thinks?

Hollywood cares. Hollywood cares, a lot. Why else would studios spend so much money on Oscar campaigns?

Oscar nominations and wins are not a lifetime guarantee of success, but they certainly help recipients get the next job.

More important, as the film industry is increasingly divided into popcorn spectacular and Oscar potential, each round of nominations and winners further solidifies the type of movies that will get made in the next year.

As many people are quick to point out, Hollywood is not a federally funded arts council, it's an industry. Studio executives choose films - and writers and stars and directors - that they believe will make money.

Which means, if you follow one train of thought, the overwhelming white maleness of most films is not a social issue, it's an economic reality. This is what the market will bear.

Except, of course, it isn't. Hollywood, like most industries, is cautious and repetitive, often looking to replicate the success of one film or another. It takes a lot to change the collective mindset, to convince those in the position to green-light films, that broadening the template will be more profitable than faithfully following it.

In the years before Peter Jackson made "The Lord of the Rings," for example, the fantasy film was dead; most Hollywood executives wouldn't touch a dragon with a 10-foot spear because, as they said repeatedly at the time, fantasy films didn't make money. They most certainly did not win Oscars.

Until, of course, they did.

In the years before Katniss Everdeen launched her first arrow, conventional wisdom held that a male protagonist was the safest bet, particularly in an action story, because girls will root for a male lead but boys would not return the favor.

Until, of course, they did.

No one makes it onto a nomination list by accident. As deserving as any film, performance, directing or sound editing might be, at some point someone decided that this film, this story was more important than some other story and that this actor or director or cinematographer had the best chance of making the end product both satisfying and successful.

Then more choices were made. Which of these films should be marketed heavily, which performances recognized as career-definers or surprise successes or emotional returns to the screen? At no point in any year are these decisions made by some amorphous star chamber of otherworldly beings capable of seeing "art" in purely objective terms. Films are financed, marketed and then voted on by people - people who often, and not surprisingly, make their decisions with reference to the template provided them by what has worked, and won, in the past.

So why does the controversy and outrage over this year's Oscar nominations matter? Because it's time - it's beyond time - that we stopped limiting ourselves to the same sorts of stories, the same sorts of characters and then reinforcing those limitations year after year after year.

Is it the academy's "fault" that so many excellent films featured all-white casts or revolved around men? Well no, and yes. The academy is made up of the people who make the films, and they know awards shows have several functions: to reward excellence, but also to show the many forms excellence can occupy.

"The aim of art," said philosopher and famous white guy Aristotle, "is to represent not the outward appearance of things, but their inward significance."

The problem with the overwhelming male-whiteness of this year's Oscars is not white males and their stories, it's the millions of other people and stories that should be part of the powerful force of American cinema and continually are not.

Tyranny comes in many forms, and offering people only one tiny window through which to view the world is one of them.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Zarathustra wrote:
Doc Hexnihilo wrote:Straight Outta Compton is a masterpiece, easily the best and most important, topical, and relevant movie of 2015.
That's, like, your opinion, man. 8)
I concur. Fury Road, Spectre, Age of Ultron, Ant-Man, and The Force Awakens. Those movies are going to be what is remembered of 2015 in the movie history books, not a music-based biopic even if it does win an Oscar.

I guess that horse wasn't as dead as I thought it was. The L. A. Times has to pander to Hollywood so it is natural that they come to Hollywood's defense.

People do realize that there are lots of movies which get made outside the insulated world of Hollywood, right? Those movies often have a quality higher than the average Hollywood movie but will never be considered for an Oscar even if they win at Cannes or Sundance.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

They also don't get the same kind of promotion and distribution.
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Post by sgt.null »

the most popular movies usually don't get Oscar, but the English Patient type of snooze fest does.

so who cares about whiny rich actors and directors crying about how unfair it all is?

make more damn zombie movies.
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Post by peter »

I think for me the problem is that for years prior to the accusations of exclusivity and racism etc, the Oscars were just such....fun! It was a big thing, waiting for the nominations, arguing with my friends about who would win, who should win, why the opinions of the Board were crap and why Spielberg never got one for 'Close encounters'. This has [possibly quite rightly - I don't know], taken something [that seemed] innocent away. It's just as though everything has to be torn down.
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Post by Zarathustra »

"The aim of art," said philosopher and famous white guy Aristotle, "is to represent not the outward appearance of things, but their inward significance."
That's pretty funny and ironic, considering that this entire argument is about the outward appearance of the people who are involved in making the movies. This has nothing to do with inward significance at all, but merely the skin color of the people getting awards.

There are a lot more contradictions and falsehoods in the article, but this one is the most blatant and relevant. This isn't about art, but rather matching skin color quotas with our nebulous, ill-defined sense of social justice in ever more trivial contexts.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

peter wrote:I think for me the problem is that for years prior to the accusations of exclusivity and racism etc, the Oscars were just such....fun! It was a big thing, waiting for the nominations, arguing with my friends about who would win, who should win, why the opinions of the Board were crap and why Spielberg never got one for 'Close encounters'. This has [possibly quite rightly - I don't know], taken something [that seemed] innocent away. It's just as though everything has to be torn down.
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Post by sgt.null »

they should just send out a check list for Oscar voters.

minority actor? check.
glbtetc character? check.
liberal message in movie? check.
snooze fest of great importance? check.

then they could get it right and feel good about themselves.
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Post by peter »

It appears that they already do Sarge! ;)
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

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