Hey y'all. Thought you might want to know that I'm new here; just signed up some two minutes ago - but I like it here already!
Around my home town, barely anyone's got the brains, time or patience to tackle any of SRD's books, 'cept my parents and a friend of my Dad's - that's who got me started on TCTC. I must say it was a relief to find this oasis of good taste in the endless desert of humdrum, mainstream SF/F-forums. All in all, thank you for being here.
Anyway, this is my first topic on this forum. Thought I'd start with something nice and diffuse, so here goes. Ahem.
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Consider, the Ravers; moksha Jehannum, turiya Herem and samadhi Sheol.
My musings of late around these unsavoury characters have been of an etymological nature, that is I have pondered the relevance of their names.
I have over latter years developed a taste for Death-Metal and Black-Metal music - the more melodious variants, mind you - and I was browsing the Web to find some new bands worth listening to. At one list page was mentioned (I think) a German band by the name of Naglfar, one of whose records was named "Sheol".
Naturally, this caught my eye instantly. Could it be that they were inspired to this album by the writings of SRD? I checked this immediately and was somewhat disappointed to find that it had nothing whatsoever to do with TCTC.
Still, it left me curious as to their choice of name for their album; so I searched the Wikipedia for the word Sheol.
A reference turned up, naming Sheol as "a Hebrew abode of the Dead, or of departed souls." Interesting, thought I - suitably gloomy for a Raver.
I proceeded to check the other names, and they also resounded somewhat of doom and gloom:
Sheol - basically a Hebrew version of Hades, the realm of the dead
Herem - (Cherem) a sort of Jewish excommunication, "the total exclusion of a person from the Jewish community"
Jehannum - while no actual references turned up to this word, it is awfully close to various forms of the word "Gehenna" - more commonly known as Hell. (Interestingly, the actual word is derived from "Gehinnom", which means "landfill".)
In retrospect, I see that this might not be much to discuss about; though I wonder if any of you have noticed the same faint pattern. Mainly, I just wanted to start a topic.
Something to think about? Or not?
Decide for yourselves. UMID out.
(Does anyone except me find my excessively advanced language annoying? =/ )
Firstly, the Ravers ...
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[Syl]
- Unfettered One
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Welcome, UMID. You'll like it here. If you do a little digging around this forum, you'll find some other interesting things about the Ravers and their names (and a lot of other topics, to be sure). I believe in one of Donaldson's interviews, he says that those were the names other people gave the ravers. Not pleasant. The names they chose for themselves, however - Samadhi, Moksha, and Turiya are entirely different.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
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Fist and Faith
- Magister Vitae
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Hi UMID. Welcome to the Watch!
Regarding your musings on the names, here's a brief email exchange I had with SRD several years ago.
Regarding your musings on the names, here's a brief email exchange I had with SRD several years ago.
Fist and Faith wrote:Several years after reading the Covenant books, I started reading about Hinduism. Imagine my surprise! So my question is: what on earth posessed you to use the words moksha, samadhi, and turiya, considering their Hindu meanings, as the names of three of the most hideously evil beings I've ever seen? I guess that the ravers helped people move on to a higher plain.....Usually by torturing them to death. But that's not much of a connection.
Don't get me wrong, I love their names. Since I didn't know anything about Hinduism when I read your stuff, I just thought that you made up some very exotic words. But it works. It's interesting to have these other, completely different, associations with these words. I just think it's kind of strange that you knew the meanings of these words, and said, "I know! I'll take the words associated with the highest Hindu experiences, and make people who know nothing about Hinduism think nothing but evil when they hear them."
An excellent answer, imo. Anyway, I'll see if I can find the other threads about this topic and bump them for you.SRD wrote:A lot of people have asked your question; so I guess I didn't exactly make my intentions clear.
[I just think it's kind of strange that you knew the meanings of these words, and said, "I know! I'll take the words associated with the highest Hindu experiences, and make people who know nothing about Hinduism think nothing but evil when they hear them.] Actually, that's *not* what I had in mind. I was trying to make what may have been an obscure point about the nature of evil. It's my belief that real evil doesn't perceive itself as evil: it perceives itself as enlightment. Sheol, Herem, and Jehannum (loosely translated: hell, genocide, and hell) are the "public" names of the Ravers; they represent the way the Ravers are perceived by the people of the Land. Moksha, turiya, and samadhi are the "private" names of the Ravers, their names for themselves. Like Hitler, Nixon, and Limbaugh, the Ravers do NOT go around saying, "I'm evil, and I'm proud." They say, "I'm better, smarter, wiser, and more important than you are, and so whatever happens to you while I get what I want is justified."
Does that help?
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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Iryssa
- Bloodguard
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The question of names is discussed fairly thoroughly in an interview Mr. Donaldson did for W.A. Senior, for his commentary on the Chronicles, titled Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (Variations on the Fantasy Tradition) (Senior, William A. 1995, The Kent State University Press, Kent, Ohio)
Here's some of what was said therein:
SRD: I am often extremely conscious of what I am doing when I do it and especially on the subject of names. Because the name becomes my way into the character, and so I have to solve the problems of the names first. It doesn't happen that this character turned out with this wonderful name....I think I have a really good ear, and sound is one of the things that I try consciously to work with because sounds are evocative, and you need names that sound right for the characters. So sound is my number-one requirement, and sometimes that's enough for me. But if I can get sound then the next thing I am after is to do something with the meaning of the words themselves, and very often when I steal words from foreign languages, I am stealing words I know the meaning of and I am using them precisely because they have that fortuitous combination of sound and meaning where...they reinforce eachother or I use them in ways that directly contradict themselves. I am thinking of the Ravers, who have names like moksha, turiya and samadi, which are all states of enlightenment in Buddhism. So why have I named Ravers, the evil beings, after states of enlightenment? Well, that gives me a way in to talk about...
WAS: [it has been said] they sound like names of Hebrew demons
SRD: That's interesting. There are more dimensions to this than we might realize. But in fact they are real words, amd they are Sanskrit words.
That's a pretty small portion of it, comparatively...he also goes on to talk about Elohim, Drool Rockworm, the na-Mhoram, etc...if you guys can get ahold of copies of that book that interview is in, I think you'd all find it very interesting...there's a lot of stuff in the interviews (which are at the back of the book) and very interesting comments about Mr. Donaldson's work in the rest of the book.
Here's some of what was said therein:
SRD: I am often extremely conscious of what I am doing when I do it and especially on the subject of names. Because the name becomes my way into the character, and so I have to solve the problems of the names first. It doesn't happen that this character turned out with this wonderful name....I think I have a really good ear, and sound is one of the things that I try consciously to work with because sounds are evocative, and you need names that sound right for the characters. So sound is my number-one requirement, and sometimes that's enough for me. But if I can get sound then the next thing I am after is to do something with the meaning of the words themselves, and very often when I steal words from foreign languages, I am stealing words I know the meaning of and I am using them precisely because they have that fortuitous combination of sound and meaning where...they reinforce eachother or I use them in ways that directly contradict themselves. I am thinking of the Ravers, who have names like moksha, turiya and samadi, which are all states of enlightenment in Buddhism. So why have I named Ravers, the evil beings, after states of enlightenment? Well, that gives me a way in to talk about...
WAS: [it has been said] they sound like names of Hebrew demons
SRD: That's interesting. There are more dimensions to this than we might realize. But in fact they are real words, amd they are Sanskrit words.
That's a pretty small portion of it, comparatively...he also goes on to talk about Elohim, Drool Rockworm, the na-Mhoram, etc...if you guys can get ahold of copies of that book that interview is in, I think you'd all find it very interesting...there's a lot of stuff in the interviews (which are at the back of the book) and very interesting comments about Mr. Donaldson's work in the rest of the book.
"A choice made freely is stronger than one compelled"
- Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land
https://www.xanga.com/Iryssa
- Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land
https://www.xanga.com/Iryssa
It would be too bad if Senior really ended up annoying SRD for whatever reason. Then again, maybe that explains why SRD is reluctant to do interviews. I just hope all the questions being put to him in the Gradual Interview section of his website aren't turning him off. So far, his responses seem enthusiastic and warm.
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Iryssa
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*shrug* I dunno...I watch BookTV quite a bit, and I've actually thought that the interviews in the book carry about the same tone most of the ones on there do...intellectual-sounding, and as straight to the point as you can go without leaving out important things...I dunno if it actually means he's annoying Mr. Donaldson...I just don't think he likes to mince words, is all.
As far as getting the book goes...I actually ordered it by mistake from a bookstore...I asked them to "order the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant for me," meaning, of course, the three books in the series. The guy at the counter, though, must've thought I meant to order that book (and I didn't think to specify the titles of the individual books, which, looking back, was kinda dumb)...not that I was terribly displeased with getting it, though *grin*
Anyway, if you go into your local bookstore and give them the book's info, they can usually order it in for you...this is handy for people like me who do not own credit cards. In Canada, you can get it through Chapters/Indigo...I forget what the US equivalent is to that chain--it's whatever one usually has a Starbuck's attached...and for the UK or anywhere else...I'm afraid I have no idea.
As far as getting the book goes...I actually ordered it by mistake from a bookstore...I asked them to "order the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant for me," meaning, of course, the three books in the series. The guy at the counter, though, must've thought I meant to order that book (and I didn't think to specify the titles of the individual books, which, looking back, was kinda dumb)...not that I was terribly displeased with getting it, though *grin*
Anyway, if you go into your local bookstore and give them the book's info, they can usually order it in for you...this is handy for people like me who do not own credit cards. In Canada, you can get it through Chapters/Indigo...I forget what the US equivalent is to that chain--it's whatever one usually has a Starbuck's attached...and for the UK or anywhere else...I'm afraid I have no idea.