Thinning in the Chrons

[peter]

I saw a program on fantasy literature last night where the presenter introduced the idea of 'thinning' as a recurring element of the genre - essentially the idea that the magic/mystery of the realms is receeding, almost leeching away if you will, leading toward a more rational/material future in which the mystical experience of the day has no place. He gave the example of the Elves heading off into the West(?) in TLOTR as a case in point and I wondered to what extent SRD had consciously used the tool in the Chrons. The Land of the third Chrons certainly seemed less magical of itself, but does it go further? Were the people's of the Earth fated to head toward a future where Earthpower was but a distant and scorned myth? Any thoughts.

[Cord Hurn]

The Land in the Last Chronicles has as much magic as it ever did, really. It's just a matter of Kevin's Dirt making the Earthpower hard to detect, and the Masters keeping the Land's denizens in ignorance of the uses of Earthpower that surrounds them.

[wayfriend]

"Thinning", which seems related to "Falling from Grace", seems to me like an obvious conceit which purports to rationalize how a medieval fantasy realm can be nonetheless "real".

"If dragons are real how come I don't ever see any?"
"Well, you see, there haven't been any in a long time."

As far as the Land goes, I think everything is explained by "writing only what you need". In the first Chronicles, Covenant is seduced into fighting Foul by the beauty of the Land, so Donaldson had to write about it's beauty. He doesn't need a reason in the Second Chronicles, and Linden's reasons are more about Covenant than the Land, so Donaldson instead writes about their love. (Which is easily as beautiful as the Land, and arguably more so.) The Last Chronicles are about family, etc.

Fans may want more of a good thing, but unfortunately Donaldson was never one for writing on worn paths.

However, there's nothing that indicates that Land is any less magical or beautiful in any of it's versions - Andelain stands as proof of that. It's merely that the author concentrated elsewhere.

On the other hand, the notion of finality has always been present in the Land. Things happen -- and there's no way to undo them. Treasures are spent; beauty is broken. And there's no going back. I don't think of this as "thinning", I think of this as consequences that matter.

[DrPaul]

Here is a quote from ch. 9, "Along the Last Hills" in FR that seems relevant to this discussion.

Spoiler

Seeking distraction, she sifted her throng of questions for one to which the Theomach could not object. Finally she said, "I was surprised that Berek found so much hurtloam." And so close to his camp. "I don"t have much experience with it, but I"ve never seen that much hurtloam in one place. Is that normal?" She meant, In this time? "It seemed too good to be true."
Jeremiah glanced at Covenant. But Covenant rode as though he had not heard her; and after a moment, Jeremiah said. "You don"t know much about the geography of the Land," as if he were explaining her situation to himself. "You"ve never seen a map. And the Sunbane confused everything."
Then he seemed to gather his thoughts. "Some of it"s about time. Where we are-I mean, when-there"s more of practically everything. More trees, more Forestals, more griffins, quellvisks, and other monsters, more Cavewights, more powers. Between now and the time where we belong, things get used up. Or killed in Foul"s wars. Or ruined by the Sunbane. Or just lost. But that"s not the main reason.
"Berek found so much hurtloam, and he"s going to keep finding it, because he"s moving toward the Black River. The Black River comes out of Melenkurion Skyweir."
Linden listened intently. Long ago, she had ridden a raft through the confluence of the Black and Mithil Rivers with Covenant and Sunder. But Covenant had told her only that the Black separated the Centre Plains from the South.
"There are a lot of springs under that mountain," Jeremiah continued. "They come out together at the base of the cliff. Most of them are just water, but one of them is EarthBlood. It"s only a trickle, but it"s intense- When the Black River pours out into Garroting Deep, it"s full of Earthpower. That"s part of why the Deep is so deadly. Caerroil Wildwood draws some of his strength from the river.
"Of course, it gets diluted. The Black joins the Mithil, and after that you can hardly tell it comes from Melenkurion Skyweir. But the Last Hills are right on the edge of Garroting Deep. From there, the power of the EarthBlood spreads into the plains.
"All that hurtloam is sort of a side effect," he concluded. "Earthpower has been seeping out of the mountain practically forever. Maybe that"s why the One Forest used to cover the whole Land. Back in those days-ages ago-you could have mined hurtloam along every stream and river in the Centre and South Plains."
His explanation saddened Linden. While she grieved quietly for what the Land had lost, or would lose, over the millennia, Jeremiah turned to Covenant. "She"s getting cold again," he observed with more certitude than he usually displayed when he spoke to Covenant. "You have to keep her warm."

[Savor Dam]

Interesting. I'd have to look at that in context.

Much of what those characters say in the first half of FR is misdirection...but not all was.

[peter]

Great quote DrPaul - yes, there certainly seems to be shades of the idea in the passage. It's not an idea I'd given much thought to, but should have done given my use of the quote "And the glory of the World becomes less than it was". Yes - the Land is still magical at the end, but there is for me a definite feel that the times, they are a'changing!

A further aspect of fantasy this program highlighted was how authors have used fantasy to hold up a mirror to our own world, and the thinning theme is in a sense an example of this where the enlightenment served to replace the superstition based explanation of events of earlier times, and magic 'receeded' from the world in response to this. Is there no sense in which the Chrons are written as allegory in this manner, or are all SRD's explorations concerned with looking inward?

[Vraith]

Great quote DrPaul - yes, there certainly seems to be shades of the idea in the passage. It's not an idea I'd given much thought to, but should have done given my use of the quote "And the glory of the World becomes less than it was". Yes - the Land is still magical at the end, but there is for me a definite feel that the times, they are a'changing!

A further aspect of fantasy this program highlighted was how authors have used fantasy to hold up a mirror to our own world, and the thinning theme is in a sense an example of this where the enlightenment served to replace the superstition based explanation of events of earlier times, and magic 'receeded' from the world in response to this. Is there no sense in which the Chrons are written as allegory in this manner, or are all SRD's explorations concerned with looking inward?

Why are you never an optimist, peter? In the real world, magic never receded---because it was never real. If anything, reason enchanted the world, so now we perform miracles with every post, both figuratively and literally beyond the conception of the pre-enlightenment. Even the greatest magic they imagined couldn't do what we do without thought or effort.

At the end of the Chron's, there is more magic than there ever was before, and more knowledge...and while there is a fair amount of loss and rubble, the future is the opposite of thinning. In a sense, [[to stick with you]] the inward is now healing and understood---so they can get busy making an outward that matches it.

[peter]

I don't mean that magic 'receeded' in a literal sense V, though in fairness I did phrase it badly - more a metaphorical receeding, in our minds as it were as we 'grew up' and away from it. Sort of like the Greek Gods withdrawing from the realm of man in mythology or the reduction in 'miricles' in Christian mythology as time has progressed. No more or less real than the ghosts that inhabit a child's bedroom as it hides it's head under the covers.

The program I saw the other night spent an hour delving into fantasy literature during the course of which Tolkein, Le Guinn, Lewis, Gaiman and Martin (to name but a few) were subjected to scrutiny under the spotlight of the presenters penetrating gaze. Even GoT was seen as allegorical of our modern world and the feeling of it all unraveling as power games are played by those at the top and those at the bottom pay the price. In the final summing up the man said that far from being simple storytellers of fantastic yarns he saw fantasy authors as the "Gothic philosopher's of the modern day" who could distill into their tales the full range of complexities and dilemmas we face as inhabitants of the modern world. Yet mention of SRD was there none, and perhaps this is the reason why: that for all of the navel gazing and rending of hair, the stories are at their core empty - they have, perhaps, nothing to add. They focus on the soul searching world of inner meltdown and then give us rainbows as an answer.

In respect of the (probably rhetorical) question as to why I am never optimistic, well - it's complicated - but in short it's probably because I initiate posts. I suppose what I am doing is trolling in the gentlest sense of the word in order to get people to respond and in that way get them and myself to think about our opinions. Do I believe what I say above for example? I have no idea to be honest - but it was SRD himself that said he wanted to raise fantasy to the level of high literature [or something] - me, I was quite happy with him as a story teller - and as such we have a right to question whether he has achieved his goal. Look at my posts on the watch, if you will, in the manner of 'the unreliable narrator'; In posting the posts that I do I'm in essence putting my own opinions to the test, or indeed trying to draw people into an examination of their own.

[On the other hand I might just be by nature a pessimist. ]

[shadowbinding shoe]

Shame on you, peter

Time is a thinning force. Entropy taketh more than it giveth. No matter its fantastical leanings, the Fantasy genre still reflects this most basic fact of our world, for the most part. Then there is experience. As Vraith said, 'There are more things in modern day life, peter, Than are dreamt of in your postopophy.' And yet, you notice them not. People are born into this world full of wonder but as they grow, as they gain in experience, they get used to all those everyday miracles. They walk in Andelain thinking only of their tight shoes.

Have you read "The King of Elfland's Daughter" by Lord Dunsany? It delves deeply into these subjects.

There's also a simpler reason. To draw in your readers, writers build a gripping plot which has something precious (beautiful-magical world) and the threat that could destroy it. Utopian tales tend to be boring. Some of the authors you mentioned aren't really (principally) saying what you say they're saying. Don't try to fit the stories into this simple mold. You'll miss much of the richness in them otherwise.