I finished the Gap series - One word - Wow. (Spoilers)

[kevinswatch]

Or did I mean to say two different words? HOLY CRAP!

Anyway, yeah, I just finished the series. Wow AND Holy Crap.

Overall, I was pretty happy with the ending. SRD did a really nice job concluding the whole conflict with Holt. And how he ended the whole story behind Warden Dios, he did an OUTSTANDING job. I mean, Warden was just awesome. Dios was able to do everything he wanted to do.

I only got teary eyed a couple times. First when Mikka said bye to Ciro and then with the whole deal with Morn at the very end, when she got teary eyed.

But there are STILL some things which I thought were missing. I wanted to see more!

Mainly, I was a little dissapointed with what happened to Angus. Is it just me, or was there something missing? Or did SRD purposefully leave it open just to be annoying.

Anyway, the main thing that I was dissapointed about was the fact that Angus didn't seem to CHANGE at all. Sure, he kelp on talking about how he became a "man who he didn't recognize" and sure, I'm sure he's probably going to live his life a "little" better now after this whole experience. AKA I don't imagine him going around killing people for fun "as much".

But STILL, he's still the same person who seems to be running away from his fears. I wanted to see SOMETHING happen between him and Morn or him and Davies. OK, maybe I was being overly optimistic. But for some reason I kept thinking that Angus was falling in love with Morn. But he just ran away! I was also hoping that he would be some kind of a father for Davies. OK, maybe in the end he did sort of end up as a father figure for Davies. But still, for some reason I wanted MORE.

Although really, I kinda expected this ending. I didn't really expect Donaldson to change Angus into a caring person. But still, for some reason I hopped.

I would have also liked to learn a little more about what happened to Davies at the end of the story. I guess we're suppose to assume that he's found how he really is. And he sort of seemed to have some sort of final understanding between himself and Angus.

So, lets see. Overall, WOW. But I still wanted a little more. I'm just greedy, hehe.-jay

[danlo]

I was very satisfied w/the ending--but like u Jay wondered about Angus and Davies...Min Donner rules!!!

[pitchwife]

Jay, I second you.

Reading the books was a hell of an experience. By the time I got to "A dark and hungry god arises" I was hooked. It was as if my heart and my nerves lay bare and SRD was playing them with his words like a ship abandoned to the winds of a stormy sea. I was completely drained of volition, all I could do was keep on reading, until my body and mind were screaming of exhaustion. It took all my will power to close the book and turn off the light, but still I couldn't sleep, adrenaline was pumping through my system, and my thoughts kept going back to the story and the characters.

Yes, I was kinda disappointed about the end. I wanted Morn to forgive Angus. But the farthest she went was "to let go of the sore conflicted part of herself that cared what happened to him" (I'm not sure this is the exact quote, I don't have the books with me)...

The relationship between Morn and Angus was intriguing, I believe SRD never actually used the word 'love' when he described Angus' feelings about her. I figure it has something to do with the abuser becoming dependent/identifing with the victim.

I had a problem with Angus. He was a loner, he hated everybody. Usually people that are driven to this position, removed from society, become self destrictive, suicidal. Humans are social animals, they can't live without a group they belong to. Yet Angus' survival instinct was strong. That didn't make any sense to me.

I could go on and on.. but I have to go.

-pitch

[danlo]

Quite an astute analysis Pitch!

[Loredoctor]

I love the Gap series, but I agree with you, Kevinswatch; I think the ending is 'insufficient' for me. For instance, I got the impression in the end that Amnion were a plot device. Donaldson himself referred to the Amnion in this way: like amnionic fluid, they exist to allow birth - in this sense the birth of a new future. We are left with Donner saying that she'd have to deal with the Amnion in a new manner. This is going to sound contraversial, but I think Fasner had it right: humanity cannot deal with the Amnion without using their birth techniques. War with the Amnion, to me, seemed inevitable.

[Dragonlily]

This is a very old thread with some interesting ideas.

First of all, Ur-Vile, do you think any differently now? Do you still think

humanity cannot deal with the Amnion without using their birth techniques.

I thought the flaw in humanity's dealing was duplicity, the very thing that made the Amnion morally driven to exterminate humanity. With Min Donner at the helm, determined to tell the Amnion the truth at all costs, human-Amnion relations would be quite different.

As for the ending of the Gap, where Morn's victory is that she can go out and face the world: yes, I find that insufficient. Same as when Covenant's victory in the 1st Chrons is that he smiles because he's alive. It seemed to me that these endings showed SRD's extraordinarily low expectations for his characters' happiness. It wasn't until I read THE MAN WHO FOUGHT ALONE that I could see SRD as a person capable of a hope for happiness.

I hadn't read MORDANT then, but if I had, I would have seen that ending as the kind obligatory in a fairy tale. It was THE MAN WHO FOUGHT ALONE that changed my perceptions of SRD from gloomy to up-looking.

[variol son]

Morn forgiving Angus, and Angus staying around to be a father to Davies wouldbe, imho, quite crass. I don't think that Morn could ever truly forgive Angus for what he did, and as long as he was arround, the pain of that time under his control would haunt her. Having Angus stick around would also be too "fairy tale finish" for me, when in reality life just isn't like that. Rapists don't stick around to parent the children of their crime, their victims don't want them to stick around, and most people don't end up turning and facing their fears.

Also, I believe that Angus transformation would be a continuing process that wasn't included as it just wasn't necessary to the overall story. Sure, it would fulfil our desire to see all the loose ends neatly tied up, but it would have turned an excellent story into a trite piece of garbage. And I usually like all the loose ends being tied up. In SRD's case however, even if I wanted more, I have never been disappointed with what I got, as it always just seemed to fit.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Dragonlily]

Hi, VS. I agree with you that Angus staying and forming a family unit with Morn and Davies would be unrealistic and "fairy talish". I do think Angus has gone beyond being just a rapist to them; he has also become a savior. The three did establish themselves as a clan early in book 4. But I agree with you that Morn would not have lived in close proximity with him by choice.

It's hard to think what would have satisfied Angus, aside from Morn, but the freedom that SRD gave him was probably the next best thing.

I'm looking at the last page about Morn in TDAGD.

But when the storm finally receded, she found that she understood something she'd never grasped before.

She could bear it. She sufficed. Because she must.

That part I recognize immanently. It's this next part that I found emotionally inadequate:

Once her hair was dry, she put on a fresh shipsuit. Then she unlocked her doors and went out to meet the future.

That's the point at which I would take stock and make plans, so simply allowing herself to be at the mercy of whatever comes is probably what I find unsatisfying. I see that it's an objection based on anticlimax.

I favor uplifting endings. Humanity is all about reaching upward, and SRD reaches upward, no doubt about that, because of the courage and achievement of his characters. I want to see the greatest reach that is possible, especially for Morn, because she is so strong.

[duchess of malfi]

I really didn't mind or dislike the ending. After all that Morn has been through, things that would have shattered many people, the fact that she is able to go through that door and find her future, is very uplifting to me...can anyone have any doubt that she will eventually find a bright one?

Though I must admit, I would love to know what will eventually happen to Angus...especially if the Amnion are really hunting him.

[Revan]

I wish we could have found out what happened to Angus as well

[UrLord]

was I the only one satisfied with the ending? I think Angus did all the changing he needed to do as a character; everone ended up exactly where they had to be. The rest of the story would have permitted little else. I imagine Angus going back to being a pirate, but not for the same reasons he had been in the past. He no longer has to run in fear of his past; that's no longer the force driving him. Just because he remains a pirate doesn't mean he's the same kind of pirate he had been in the past...I suppose he could be compared to the (nice?) pirate in Pirates of the Carribean...except, well...more...Angus...Ok, there's no good comparison out there, so that seems to be as close as I can get. True, he'll continue being a criminal and (most likely) a loner, but not in the horrendously evil and psychotic manner he had been before the events of the Gap changed him. He transformed as much as it was possible for his character to realistically transform...you can't really expect him to become a cop, or have some desk job filling out paperwork for the UMC, can you? I think I would have been disappointed if Donaldson had done anything differently with the ending...

[duchess of malfi]

Oh, I liked the ending for Morn, and the others.

I just wish we could see Angus in action against the Amnion, given the threats they made about hunting him down.

[Revan]

I just wish we could see Angus in action against the Amnion, given the threats they made about hunting him down.

Nah, those were pure bluff. The Amnoini have no way of knowing the threats made to Angus. Those threats were as empty of substance than I am of brains....

[Tranquil Hegemony]

I finished the series (for the third time now, I think) today. And just as if someone had said "apotheosis", I am now free to read this board without worrying about spoilers. Granted, I knew basically what would happen, but I have an amazing ability to forget important details before I re-read something. For example I can only remember a handful of things about Mordant's Need (next on my reading list) even though I've read it at least five times back in high school.

Anyway - about Angus: supposedly he can't make deals with the Amnion, since Vestabule announced his vendetta - although since he and Calm Horizons were destroyed, nobody has any reason to believe the rest of the Amnion would even know about that. Vestabule would have to have one of those SCRT things with enough range to communicate with the others. Even if he did none of the suriving humans even knew about those, did they?

Angus can't come back to Earth because of his programming. Maybe he could edit his datacore again (with help), and maybe he could alter his programming with his new "apotheosis" knowledge, but I doubt he'd care that much to go through all that.

Min and Hashi seem pretty confident he won't use Holt's data himself, but what's to stop him from selling it to other illegals? That's really the only currency he's got, besides Motherload, which he seems to want to keep (and who could blame him!)

So what does Angus do with himself after this? Fly around in his golden spaceship (I imagine Motherload being gold-plated, hehe), selling off Holt's data whenever he needs cash, living the high life, watching ultraporn (thanks Futurama)?

[Penner Theologius Pott]

I generally hate trying to examine a work based on a psychoanalysis of the author, but I'll take a chance for once.

At the end of "The Real Story," Donaldson wrote about being appalled at his own capacity to identify with Angus -- like he had reached into some primal part of himself and pulled out something this horrific, this wretched. So, in the first book, he gives us an unyielding portrait of a man who I can comfortably describe as one of the most evil characters I've ever encountered.

He then spends the next four books trying to redeem him.

Fortunately, because the writer is as skilled as Donaldson, the process is interesting. He doesn't allow himself any crude short-cuts, any cheap ways out. He refuses to flinch from honest responses for these characters.

Does he succeed? No. In many respects, Angus is simply unredeemable. He cannot become something other than what he is.

But I might be tempted to theorize that Donaldson's attempts to redeem Angus are an attempt to redeem some part of himself.

In fact, Angus' capacity for evil is an absolute asset to Morn and Davies and the others; he is capable of acts which are necessary, but they cannot perform without becoming morally compromised. See Warden Dios.

To tie this in with another point on this thread; the ending expresses hope that Min, through her "bloodthirsty honesty", I believe the phrase was, might be able to forge some kind of workable relationship with the Amnion. The ending is, of course, ambiguous at best. Not least because she keeps Hashi Lebwohl by her side.

To tie this in with the Ring Cycle: you have Wodan, an utterly fascinating figure; on the one hand he keeps Thor, a being of absolute, pure morality; and on the other hand he keeps Loki, a being of absolute amorality. He recognizes that he must embrace both, in order to achieve his ends.

Warden, too, recognizes the need for both Min and Hashi. (See Thomas Covenant, as Donaldson has written of his need to embrace Lord Foul instead of to fight him.)

Wow. Um, looking back, I think I've just produced a more layered argument than I originally intended to: how Donaldson's relationship with Angus reflects Warden's relationship with Hashi reflects Covenant's relationship with Foul, et cetera. I need to sit down and work this out in more detail. Hmm...needing to embrace evil? The impotence of pure virtue in confronting evil? Hmm.

[Revan]

heh, great posts people!